It seems the U.S. is...

[Chip Monk]

Presumably you see the irony of me posting an anti-Israeli. Maybe not.

"and you present that, not only as absolute 'proof', but the definitive answer, as if there is no other point of view."

Never let it be said Billy puts words in people's mouth or owt.

I've never heard of RATLINE Billy, other than you posting about it. Here's my answer. I don't know what it is so I'll take it on face value that you are right.

If you don't accept that the good Doctor is a reliable witness as to the Pope's actions during the war then what about Golda Meir

"At the time of Pius PP. XII's death in 1958, Israel's Golda Meir, who later became prime minister, telegraphed Rome: "...When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict."

She went on to become Prime Minister. So what we have are Jews from totally opposing viewpoints both praising the man.

[Ava Estelle]

Another selective post JP. Golda Meir wrote that in 1958, before the Vatican archives were opened, throwing some light on the catholic church's involvement. She also knew nothing of RATLINE.

Here 's a bit of reading for you, plenty of links too. The Jewish Virtual Library

So, what about the RATLINE? Now you know of it, why not learn and comment? For instance, what was the Vatican's motives for aiding the escape of Nazi war criminals? Could it be because some of them knew too much? That they were good catholics? Why would they then look after them in South America?

I look forward to your reply, tomorrow, unless this cyclone hits us in the meantime, in which case it may be a few days.

Just a bit about the Vatican and CIA documents, as it says, the first papers weren't released until the 1980's ... I don't know what the outcome of this court case was, I'll find out later ..

Two California attorneys have filed a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit in a bid to have the U.S. Army and CIA release documents relating to alleged Vatican collaboration with Nazi-allied fascists in the wartime Balkans.

The Army's decision earlier this year to withhold more than 250 documents, some at the request of the CIA, was in violation of the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act, the lawyers contended in their complaint.

Jonathan Levy and Tom Easton are representing elderly Serb, Jewish and Ukrainian survivors of atrocities committed by the Nazi puppet regime in Croatia, the Ustashe, in a class action lawsuit against the Vatican Bank and the monastic Franciscan Order.

Wartime intelligence documents have suggested Ustashe leaders took loot, including gold, silver and jewelry seized from their victims, to the Vatican at the end of the war.

There the assets were allegedly used to help finance an escape route - the "ratline" - for Nazis trying to escape Europe, according to the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which tracks Nazi war criminals.

The Vatican has consistently denied the allegations, while declining to open its unpublished wartime archives despite appeals from Jewish and other groups.

Source

[Mr JP Fugley]

Billy you're flogging a dead horse here, again. The Catholic Church has done some terrible things in it's history, or at least people from within it. I've said that loads of times.

Jewish people have done terrible things. You pointed that out yourself. In fact it's the only other one you seem to accept.

Muslims have done terrible things. The Muslim leadership still issue death warrants. Still preach hate in the streets. Still encourage murder and violence. Not exactly big on equal rights either if the stories are to be believed.

Protestants have done terrible things. They murdered innocent people in Ireland in the same way Catholics did. there's not as many of them Worldwide, nor are they as old, however they have done their bit.

White imperialists of various religions or none at all have done terrible things, have tortured and enslaved, all over the World. You yourself argue that they continue to do it to this day.

The Chinese have a dreadful history on civil rights. As have various other countries.

The Nazi Party, a political group. No need to go into that, everyone knows it. But what of the political organisations in the UK who supported the upper classes. What about the way the poor were downtrodden and had little or no rights.

What about the potato famines in Ireland. Probably mostly Catholics who suffered in that one.

The point is, you are anti-semite and anti-catholic. So you only accept that these groups (or members of them) are guilty of any wrong. In spite of the fact that others have done as much.

Muslim terrorists murdered thousands in America, in a well organised, well funded, well trained manner. This was not a random group of terrorists. So shall we blame everyone of that faith. Everyone who supports the teachings of Islam, or helps to support it financially.

We've been here before, it's all so predictable.

[Ava Estelle]

Good post JP, mostly.

Unlike catholicism, there is no Muslim leadership, that's part of the problem, if they had a 'Vatican' things may be different. Catholicism is run from the top, Islam is run locally.

Your accusations of anti-semitism needs clarification; if you're saying I hate all jews, you're wrong; if you're saying I hate the government of Israel, and Zionism, and that's why I'm anti-semite, you're also wrong, unless you're saying that jews who feel the same way are also anti-semite.

With regards to the 1947-49 Israeli war of Independence, the terrorists who started the slaughter of Palestinians were jewish, not Israeli, Israel wasn't founded until 1948, and you still haven't commented on their actions.

Here's a quote for you, from Aharon Zisling, the minister of agriculture, who told the Israeli cabinet on 17 November 1948: "I couldn't sleep all night. I felt that things that were going on were hurting my soul, the soul of my family and all of us here (...) Now Jews too have behaved like Nazis and my entire being has been shaken.

It's worth mentioning too that representatives of one of these 'gangs' met with the Nazis prior to the war and suggested they expel all European jews, with the hope that enough would settle in Palestine to give the Zionists a majority jewish population. I wonder what Hitler thought of the idea?

By anti-catholic, I take it you're talking about the religion, if you're talking about all catholics you are wrong again.

Then, of course, you forgot to mention the US, although you mentioned 9\11, maybe you believe the deaths of 30,000 innocent Afghani civilians in the revenge attack was justified?

The rest of your post is correct, and I have supported those views also.

[Biggles]

Good post JP, mostly.

Unlike catholicism, there is no Muslim leadership, that's part of the problem, if they had a 'Vatican' things may be different. Catholicism is run from the top, Islam is run locally.

Your accusations of anti-semitism needs clarification; if you're saying I hate all jews, you're wrong; if you're saying I hate the government of Israel, and Zionism, and that's why I'm anti-semite, you're also wrong, unless you're saying that jews who feel the same way are also anti-semite.

With regards to the 1947-49 Israeli war of Independence, the terrorists who started the slaughter of Palestinians were jewish, not Israeli, Israel wasn't founded until 1948, and you still haven't commented on their actions.

Here's a quote for you, from Aharon Zisling, the minister of agriculture, who told the Israeli cabinet on 17 November 1948: "I couldn't sleep all night. I felt that things that were going on were hurting my soul, the soul of my family and all of us here (...) Now Jews too have behaved like Nazis and my entire being has been shaken.

It's worth mentioning too that representatives of one of these 'gangs' met with the Nazis prior to the war and suggested they expel all European jews, with the hope that enough would settle in Palestine to give the Zionists a majority jewish population. I wonder what Hitler thought of the idea?

By anti-catholic, I take it you're talking about the religion, if you're talking about all catholics you are wrong again.

Then, of course, you forgot to mention the US, although you mentioned 9\11, maybe you believe the deaths of 30,000 innocent Afghani civilians in the revenge attack was justified?

The rest of your post is correct, and I have supported those views also.

Post the Balfour Declaration of 1917 there was a steady trickle of Jewish immigrants to Palestine. These people bought land and businesses and farmed and traded with only minor clashes recorded with the local population. Post 1935, when Hitler's anti-Jewish policies really began to kick in, there was a flood of refugees to Palestine. More immigrated between 1935 and 1939 than between 1917 and 1934. So one could say that the Nazis were not adverse to ethnically cleansing rather than out and out killing. The big difference being that these subsequent refugees were stripped of property by the Nazis and were consequently penniless, often middle class, urbanites. Quite different from those who who had moved to Palestine in the two decades before. The Arabs petitioned the British to stop the ships coming from Europe. The British agreed and turned ships back in the 39 sending the occcupants to almost certain death in the camps back in Germany.

[Ava Estelle]

The British agreed and turned ships back in the 39 sending the occcupants to almost certain death in the camps back in Germany.

Not just the British, the US turned refugees away too, like the St. Louis.

[Biggles]

It is perhaps easy to forget how popular bigotry and persecution were pre WW2 - not to say that it is still not commonplace but in the 1930s, and before, one could openly display ones bigotry with pride. Popular newspapers on both sides of the Atlantic in the early 30s were far from against Hitler and his views on race and racial purity. There have been holocausts before - the Armenians in the Great War is an example - but somehow these were pushed to the back of peoples' consciousness (it is still a crime to talk about it in Turkey to ensure it stays there too) but the revelations of the camps in Germany were too horrific and too apparent to ignore. Consciousness was raised and moral certainties about race became moral dilemmas.