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Thread: A poll of representative Muslims...

  1. #1
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    ...indicates reason for concern, I think.

    BTW-

    Yes, Tony Blankley is a conservative, but no, it has no particular bearing on this piece.


    A Rising Tide of Fury
    By Tony Blankley
    Wednesday, May 2, 2007


    Whenever I refer to the threat of radical Islam, I am inundated with e-mails chastising me for unjustified alarmism (that is the polite description of the missives). This week, even the esteemed and often accurate British Economist accused me, by name, of overestimating the threat and being alarmist on the topic.

    Not only do I hope they are right, but I regularly monitor the news for evidence of my error; for I have long taken to heart and applied to myself the advice that Oliver Cromwell gave to the Scottish Presbyterians: "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken."

    Nonetheless, while Muslim attitudes across the world are dynamic, and subtle inflections of thought are not easily captured by polling, the news continues to be not encouraging.

    Last week, the respected University of Maryland Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA), released its most recent survey of Muslim attitudes on America, terrorism and related topics. They surveyed attitudes in four representative Muslim countries: Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia and Morocco.

    On the question of America's influence in the world, from a low of 60 percent in Indonesia to a high of 89 percent in Egypt, they answered that most or nearly all of what happens in the world is controlled by the United States. And how do the world's Muslims see (what they believe to be) our all-powerful objectives?

    From a low of 73 percent in Indonesia to a high of 92 percent in Egypt the Muslims believe that America's goal is "to weaken and divide the Islamic world." Fairly assuming that these four countries' populations represent worldwide Muslim views in Islamic countries, in other words, about 80 percent of the 1.4 billion Muslims or about a billion souls see America as hostile or an enemy to Islam.

    Between 61 percent and 67 percent of the polled Muslims also thought that America's goal was to spread Christianity in the Middle East. Given that Islam teaches that Muslim converts to other religions must be executed, this purported American objective is probably not well received.

    What do they think is our primary goal in the war on terror? Between 9 percent-23 percent believe it is to protect ourselves from terrorism. Between 53 percent-86 percent believe it is to weaken, divide and dominate the Islamic religion and people.

    What percentage of the polled Muslims is in favor of terrorism attacks on civilians (and note the question doesn't say American civilians -- which presumably would be more popular than attacks on even Muslim civilians -- as the general form of the question suggests)?

    To varying degrees, 27 percent of Moroccans, 21 percent of Egyptians, 13 percent of Pakistanis and 11 percent of Indonesians approve of terrorism attacks on civilians -- and not just American civilians. Extrapolating those percentages to the world Muslim population, roughly 250 million Muslims may approve, under some circumstances, of terrorism attacks on civilians generally. One might reasonably guess a somewhat larger number would favor it if limited to American victims.

    Of course, as the study points out, "Large majorities (57 percent-84 percent) in all countries oppose attacks against civilians for political purposes and see them as contrary to Islam." We must be grateful for such mercies. But when, to fairly extrapolate these numbers, about a quarter of a billion Muslims are in favor of civilian terrorist attacks, I think prudent people are entitled to be alarmed at the magnitude of the threat.
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #2
    MaxOverlord's Avatar Simplify
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    My cause of concern is the people who don't have a cause for concern.

    Ignoring the problem,thinking that Islamic terrorists won't strike those who stay out of "things",and turning a blind eye and a numb brain to things certainly won't solve anything will it?

    The terrorists are in this for the long haul. This is something that they believe has been pre-ordained by Allah. They are not afraid to die for Jihad. In fact it is the tantamount idea. That and killing Westerners. This is a war of religion.
    That is a fact. I'm not advocating it,I'm stating it as I see it. Islam is the factor for their dying and fighting. They want Jews and Christian exterminated.

    What is this if not a war of religious beliefs? We will say we are fighting for Western Civilization. Does that include Judeo-Christian philosophy?
    It certainly does by my point of view.

    Religion will always fire up the most excitement in those who feel they are dying for their God. This is a fact. The main difference between US and Them is They want death. They celebrate death. For us the goal is the continuation of life and freedom. They are not interested in freedom unless it is under the hand of a "representative" of Allah. This is a guise for oppression. Death is the answer...it is the freedom they seek.

    We must ask ourselves which is stronger? The desire to perpetuate life or the seeking of death? This is a core component and should not be under-estimated.
    You just keep pushing. You just keep pushing. I made every mistake that could be made. But I just kept pushing..... Descartes

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #3
    vidcc's Avatar there is no god
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    If this poll was taken in say 1999 do you think the same amount would believe Americas goal is "to weaken and divide the Islamic world." If the same question was asked today of American Christians what they thought the goal of Islam is I'm guessing the result would be similar.

    The article in this thread alone is a shining example.

    If we want to confront/reduce terrorism and the reasons for it then it doesn't matter what we think we are doing. It matters what they think we are doing.

    As I listen to the neo-cons posture about the need for more military action against the middle east I wonder what difference in the minds there is between the demands of these people using the huge military might of the USA and the opinions of those that don't have a huge military but view what we call terrorism as military action to achieve their respective aims.

    What stands out most for me about the article is that he makes no effort to try to understand why they felt as they did.


    Giuliani got the applause at the debate, but Paul was correct.

    it’s an election with no Democrats, in one of the whitest states in the union, where rich candidates pay $35 for your votes. Or, as Republicans call it, their vision for the future.

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #4
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    [
    On the question of America's influence in the world, from a low of 60 percent in Indonesia to a high of 89 percent in Egypt, they answered that most or nearly all of what happens in the world is controlled by the United States. And how do the world's Muslims see (what they believe to be) our all-powerful objectives?
    I'd have difficulty agreeing with the question as it is posed there, but its not a million miles off, as i reckon the United States has a significant influence/impact on the domestic and foreign of pretty much every nation in the world.

    From a low of 73 percent in Indonesia to a high of 92 percent in Egypt the Muslims believe that America's goal is "to weaken and divide the Islamic world." Fairly assuming that these four countries' populations represent worldwide Muslim views in Islamic countries, in other words, about 80 percent of the 1.4 billion Muslims or about a billion souls see America as hostile or an enemy to Islam.
    Again if asked i wouldn't have agreed with that statement but its not miles off. Whereas it says that its America's goal i think its more a possible strategy towards achieving a more lofty goal. As to whether America is currently using said strategy i'm uncertain.

    Between 61 percent and 67 percent of the polled Muslims also thought that America's goal was to spread Christianity in the Middle East. Given that Islam teaches that Muslim converts to other religions must be executed, this purported American objective is probably not well received.
    I'd have agreed with that if asked. I do believe that America sees Christianity as a force for good and a potential way of building bridges and I believe the US is encouraging its spread
    What do they think is our primary goal in the war on terror? Between 9 percent-23 percent believe it is to protect ourselves from terrorism. Between 53 percent-86 percent believe it is to weaken, divide and dominate the Islamic religion and people.
    I believe its to protect yourselves from terrorism and to a certain extent thats acceptable, but to my way of thinking, you over value you're own security and are too content to increase it at the expense of other peoples security
    What percentage of the polled Muslims is in favor of terrorism attacks on civilians (and note the question doesn't say American civilians -- which presumably would be more popular than attacks on even Muslim civilians -- as the general form of the question suggests)?
    To varying degrees, 27 percent of Moroccans, 21 percent of Egyptians, 13 percent of Pakistanis and 11 percent of Indonesians approve of terrorism attacks on civilians -- and not just American civilians. Extrapolating those percentages to the world Muslim population, roughly 250 million Muslims may approve, under some circumstances, of terrorism attacks on civilians generally. One might reasonably guess a somewhat larger number would favor it if limited to American victims.
    American victims? BS, try Israeli victims. of course muslims are going to be sympathetic to palestinian suicide bombers. In fact if you'd asked Irish people during the troubles I doubt their response would have been a million miles off 27%. A significant % of Irish-Americans would probably have agreed, why do you think they donated? F*king hypocrites.

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #5
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxOverlord View Post
    They want Jews and Christian exterminated.
    Do they really want jews and christians exterminated, or an end to judaism and christianity? If you convert i'm sure they'll be fine with you carrying on living...
    Quite frankly i want an end to judaism and christianity too (and islam...)

    What is this if not a war of religious beliefs? We will say we are fighting for Western Civilization. Does that include Judeo-Christian philosophy?
    It certainly does by my point of view.
    I don't want us to fight for judeo-christian philosophy, its mostly 2nd hand, 2nd rate and self-contradictory.

    Religion will always fire up the most excitement in those who feel they are dying for their God. This is a fact.
    quoi?

    We must ask ourselves which is stronger? The desire to perpetuate life or the seeking of death? This is a core component and should not be under-estimated.
    we must also ask ourselves who has a bigger military budget,

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #6
    thewizeard's Avatar re-member BT Rep: +1
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    The truth is; sooner or later, The Islam will try to propagate their religion to the whole world, By peaceful means or by jihad.

    In Christian areas Mosques are rising against the backdrop of green fields and cows chewing the Grass.

    Sooner or later..this religion, slowly spreading as a cancer, to a God, that has long forgotten mankind. With enticing offers of worldly pleasures in Paradise for killing innocent men, women and children, robbing them from a right to freely worship the God of their own choice One thing is for sure, Allah will be less pleased with this ideology than certain rebels think.

    I think also if a Muslim wishes to pay his respects to Allah or worship in a Mosque..good OK, go and do that in Islamic country.

    We don't want your blood and fear taking root in our precious soil. It's time to act firmly, yet resolutely.

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #7
    lynx's Avatar .
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    Those who are wielding weapons will never convince others that armed conflict doesn't work.

    What's more, the more you use those weapons, the more your opposition will be convinced that they are pursuing the right course.
    .
    Political correctness is based on the principle that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #8
    MaxOverlord's Avatar Simplify
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilw View Post
    Do they really want jews and christians exterminated, or an end to judaism and christianity? If you convert i'm sure they'll be fine with you carrying on living...
    Quite frankly i want an end to judaism and christianity too (and islam...)

    What is this if not a war of religious beliefs? We will say we are fighting for Western Civilization. Does that include Judeo-Christian philosophy?
    It certainly does by my point of view.
    I don't want us to fight for judeo-christian philosophy, its mostly 2nd hand, 2nd rate and self-contradictory.

    Religion will always fire up the most excitement in those who feel they are dying for their God. This is a fact.
    quoi?

    We must ask ourselves which is stronger? The desire to perpetuate life or the seeking of death? This is a core component and should not be under-estimated.
    we must also ask ourselves who has a bigger military budget,
    The conversion and extinction argument is one in the same. I'm very interested in what your 1st rate philosophy would be. You completely missed my point with your military budget response. It has nothing to do with money.
    You just keep pushing. You just keep pushing. I made every mistake that could be made. But I just kept pushing..... Descartes

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #9
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by vidcc View Post
    If this poll was taken in say 1999 do you think the same amount would believe Americas goal is "to weaken and divide the Islamic world."
    You mean during the Clinton administration?

    What if the poll was "taken" in 1998? 1997? 1996? 1995? 1994? 1993? 1992?

    How about 1990? 1985?

    Or very late 1979...maybe early 1980?

    Quote Originally Posted by vidcc View Post
    If we want to confront/reduce terrorism and the reasons for it then it doesn't matter what we think we are doing. It matters what they think we are doing.
    Does it matter what we think they are doing?

    Quote Originally Posted by vidcc View Post
    What stands out most for me about the article is that he makes no effort to try to understand why they felt as they did.
    If his intent was to publicize the polling data, what possible use would his "understanding" have served, other than to assuage your concern?

    Quote Originally Posted by vidcc View Post
    Giuliani got the applause at the debate, but Paul was correct.
    Right as to Giuliani, wrong as to Paul, who is a simplistic ass.

    Before you respond to this post, vid, revisit your opening salvo in which you question the validity of the poll's conclusions based on when it was taken, thence proceed to state Ron Paul was "correct".
    Last edited by j2k4; 05-18-2007 at 02:35 AM.
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #10
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilw View Post
    We must ask ourselves which is stronger? The desire to perpetuate life or the seeking of death? This is a core component and should not be under-estimated.
    we must also ask ourselves who has a bigger military budget,
    Ah, but then we have to ask how we came to afford such a big military budget, you see?

    The argument becomes circular in short order.
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

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