Abortion Views

[clocker]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@3 July 2003 - 15:30



However unlike you j2k4 I still believe that it is and should be, the ladies choice as to wether to have an abortion.

I also believe that they should not be allowed to make this decision without councelling from a professional, prior to the operation.

I said, I still feel sad..I have also seen a dear friend try and kill herself while drunk and moping about an abortion she'd had 4 years previously. I do not think that they should be allowed to make a decision of this magnitude by themselves, under any circumstances.

You seem conflicted (understandably), RF.

Either it's the woman's decision or it's not.
Should she seek councelling, fine.
Should she feel confident in her decision sans outside advice, again, fine.

If you want to stipulate mandatory pre-proceedure councelling then who is to give it?

[J'Pol]

Faceman

Once again you show maturity beyond your years. You have obviously put a lot of thought into this.

Please bear in mind that adoption is also an option, though not perhaps an ideal one fore everyone. That way the parents can continue with their life, the child can have a life and a couple who maybe want but can't have children can enhance theirs and the child's life.

There are always parents who want to adopt. I know it causes problems later (sometimes) but the child does have a life.

I know several people who were adopted. They all decided to find out who their "biological" parents were, but they all also consider their adoptive parents as mum and dad.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by Jpaul+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jpaul)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You are being obtuse and we are ruining a perfectly good discussion. There has been some excellent posting here and if it is to be destroyed than I would rather not be a part of it. [/b]

No Im not, not at all.

<!--QuoteBegin-Jpaul
If you cannot understand that to me there is no alternative, that killing babies is wrong and that there are only very limited circumstances (for example the mothers life being at risk) where this is acceptable then I cannot make it any clearer for you.[/quote]

I meant an alternative to the current system. Your the one failing to understand what Im talking about.

So when the mothers life is at risk that is one scenario where abortion would be acceptable. Are there any others?

I am asking you to describe the system you would like to have in place instead of the current one.

How would you deal with backstreet abortions etc? Would women be allowed to leave the country to get abortions?

These are all important issues that would come up if abortion were outlawed. If you feel bringing these issues up is ruining a good debate then Im sorry, but I think they&#39;re extremely relevant.

[Rat Faced]

I think the counselling should be part of the decision process...hence "not by herself"

I dont feel conflicted...although I admit to finding it difficult to find the words to express what i feel on the subject.

Its HER decision at the end of the day...but she should not be allowed the operation without councelling...ie Education and explanation of what the psychological implications, as well as the physical may be.

I say Councelling; as i believe a trained profesional should undertake this, so she can talk freely about her feelings if she wishes to (and she should). Sometimes "someone to talk to" may be all she needs to decide NOT to go through with it.

Just taking them in and doing the op, is a dereliction of duty on the part of the Medical Service concerned in my opinion.

[clocker]

So far, we seem to have discussed abortion back and forth, side to side.
I propose we expand the topic somewhat.

What about &#39;pre-conception&#39;?
How can we make it less likely that abortion even need be considered?
JPaul,
I gather that the primary source of your beliefs re:abortion is religious.
What is your thinking on sex-education and contraception?

Personally, I find it ironic that, in my experience, many people who are against abortion are also against the education and technology (i.e. condoms, the pill, etc.) that would prevent the crisis in the first place.

Edit to respond to RF,

In the late sixties/early seventies, my first wife was a councellor at the Washington Free Clinic. To my knowledge, neither then nor now, is there anyplace where a woman simply walks in and gets an abortion on the spot. "Talking to someone" was always part of the process as was a mandatory waiting period. In the end, the councelling received was based on the questions that were asked. If the woman was only concerned about strictly medical information, then that is what she got.
If she had moral/ethical questions then there were volunteer psychologists and religious people available. If she simply wanted to talk to another woman who had been in the same position she could talk to my wife. The nature of the advice was dependent on the nature of the particular patient. I think it worked very well.

[liquidacid]

Personally, i think it is very wrong for this topic to be here. This is a very sensitive, personal subject, and chatting about it on a message board is very wrong.

Yes, of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but surely this thread is in danger of upsetting others. While debate is healthy, there is nothing to be gained here from this discussion.

This, the most painful decision a woman can ever make, is not for any of us to comment upon. For us to do so, (with inserted Smilies, and sigs) trivialises the heartbreak that is very real for many women.

CLOSE THIS THREAD. THIS IS VERY WRONG

[the_faceman]

Yes, adoption is a very real alternative, my Gran was adopted, and lost her adoptive mother at 15 years of age, then my Great-Granda lived a long life to 88 years old, that was around 6 years ago he died, and she still cries when she thinks about him, so i know for fact that someone can love their adoptive parents as much as their biological parents. I&#39;d be all for it if somehow you could be guaranteed that your child wouldn&#39;t be abandoned in some care home, maybe by arranging adoptive parents beforehand, but that brings obvious complications, it&#39;d be difficult to allow you to know your childs future parents, in case you had a change of heart 10 years down the line looking for your child, disrupting what may be a very happy "new family." Those kind of things are better dealt with using a third party, for instance the care home itself, which has to keep records i think, in case the child or parents wish to make contact, and then a message is passed on. Incidentally, my Gran found out about her true mother when she was about 50 years old, and they loved each other in a special way, but were more like best friends rather than mother and daughter, but it was still very upsetting for my gran when her biological mother died. Her mother had been forced by her family to put my Gran up for adoption, as her biological father died in a motorbike accident (virtually unheard of in the 30&#39;s i&#39;d imagine) but they weren&#39;t married, so the stigma attached to my great-grandmother and her family was immense, especially during that time period.

I apologise for going off on a tangent there, to cut a long story short, adoption can be a good alternative to abortion.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by clocker@3 July 2003 - 23:09
So far, we seem to have discussed abortion back and forth, side to side.
I propose we expand the topic somewhat.

What about &#39;pre-conception&#39;?
How can we make it less likely that abortion even need be considered?
JPaul,
I gather that the primary source of your beliefs re:abortion is religious.
What is your thinking on sex-education and contraception?

Personally, I find it ironic that, in my experience, many people who are against abortion are also against the education and technology (i.e. condoms, the pill, etc.) that would prevent the crisis in the first place.

I believe that sex education is vitally important. So much so that we (good lady and I) made sure that our 2 oldest children were aware of sexuality at an age. We discussed things when we thought the children were ready to understand it. We did not leave it up to schools to do that.

We have openly discussed sexuality, masturbation, procreation etc with them from a reasonably early age. I can certainly say that by 12 both of my eldest sons knew exactly how babies were made and how to avoid it happening. Not through school yard banter but through serious adult discussion.

Moving on to the next part, I have absolutely no problem with contraception. Indeed I would encourage the whole idea of family planning. Make sure the baby isn&#39;t made in the first place and there is no problem. I myself have practised it all of my adult life and my two eldest have been advised to do the same.

If for example the eldest is going out for the evening I will ensure that he has a condom. I won&#39;t actually check his pockets, but either his mum or I will ask him if he needs one. He has no problem with this, indeed I think he sees is as us accepting his adulthood.

Young people should be free to express their sexuality, without the fear of it affecting the rest of their lives. They should experiment and have fun. However if they get it wrong and make another person, then that person also has the right to live.

I am currently like the man who jumped out of the 120 storey building - so far so good.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by the_faceman@3 July 2003 - 23:21
Yes, adoption is a very real alternative, my Gran was adopted, and lost her adoptive mother at 15 years of age, then my Great-Granda lived a long life to 88 years old, that was around 6 years ago he died, and she still cries when she thinks about him, so i know for fact that someone can love their adoptive parents as much as their biological parents. I&#39;d be all for it if somehow you could be guaranteed that your child wouldn&#39;t be abandoned in some care home, maybe by arranging adoptive parents beforehand, but that brings obvious complications, it&#39;d be difficult to allow you to know your childs future parents, in case you had a change of heart 10 years down the line looking for your child, disrupting what may be a very happy "new family." Those kind of things are better dealt with using a third party, for instance the care home itself, which has to keep records i think, in case the child or parents wish to make contact, and then a message is passed on. Incidentally, my Gran found out about her true mother when she was about 50 years old, and they loved each other in a special way, but were more like best friends rather than mother and daughter, but it was still very upsetting for my gran when her biological mother died. Her mother had been forced by her family to put my Gran up for adoption, as her biological father died in a motorbike accident (virtually unheard of in the 30&#39;s i&#39;d imagine) but they weren&#39;t married, so the stigma attached to my great-grandmother and her family was immense, especially during that time period.

I apologise for going off on a tangent there, to cut a long story short, adoption can be a good alternative to abortion.

The way you have contributed to this thread, you go off on a tangent any time you want here mate.

If anyone doesn&#39;t like it, tell them to talk to me.

I say this while genuinely crying in real life.

[ShockAndAwe^i^]

Shock&Awe: (your Abortion Facts link needs a tiny bit of modification) As for Abortions compared to War deaths, so what? I don&#39;t really understand the point of that, why not compare war deaths to murders or miscarriages? That would be a similar statistic and would maybe get some more funding for these problems.

Why can&#39;t you understand the point?
The comparison was given because this is what we&#39;re talking about.
I thought the links I put were very middle of the road, if not leaning slightly towards the pro choice view.
Except for the one and only religious view.
Don&#39;t you think the religious point of view needs to be expressed as well as other points of view?
Actually is was just a quick token page that I found, but I could surely put a more representative link if you want?


Edited by Rat Faced.

Pic removed.

Although the picture was not graphic in any way, due to the nature of this topic I think its best NOT to resort to pictures that may give offence not intended, to people that have either gone through, are thinking of going through or simply have strong views on....this operation/subject.

A picture paints a thousand words, its true. They can also bring tears to the eyes, and heartache in a subject this sensitive.