Abortion Views

[ilw]

My point isn't that the aid shouldn't be given, just that its being wasted. I know i'm carrying the analogy too far, but...
in your brief example

If you were drowning, would you reject the offer of a life preserver based upon the politics of those who were offering?

I'd extend that to:
wouldn't u be pissed off if loads of you & your countrymen were drowning and a saviour came along in a rickety boat, only able to save a few because the rest of the money (that could have been spent building a big boat to save hundreds) had been spent putting priests on the boat who were there to convert the few they saved?
Sorry thats taking the example way too far, but its a flavour of how i see it. Obviously any boat is welcome, but still...

[ilw]

My point isn't that the aid shouldn't be given, just that its being wasted. I know i'm carrying the analogy too far, but...
in your brief example

If you were drowning, would you reject the offer of a life preserver based upon the politics of those who were offering?

I'd extend that to:
wouldn't u be pissed off if loads of you & your countrymen were drowning and a saviour came along in a rickety boat, only able to save a few because the rest of the money (that could have been spent building a big boat to save hundreds) had been spent putting priests on the boat who were there to convert the few they saved?
Sorry thats taking the example way too far, but its a flavour of how i see it. Obviously any boat is welcome, but still...

[j2k4]

I'll grant you make your point even though I disagree.

I'm not going to say "be glad they're getting any aid at all"; that would be uncharitable and objectionable on any number of levels.

What I am saying is this:

With the money comes (apparently) a religious component that some find mis-placed.

How could one determine how much of the total worth of the program is "wrongly" absorbed by this religious component?

Any religious personnel involved are trained in some form of medical endeavor (hands-on or logistical support/problem solving types); they don't issue booster shots, birth control, and religious indoctrination in equal measures.

Neither do I think Planned Parenthood is the only organization qualified to dispense information or education having to do with sexual reproduction or contraceptive birth control.

If teaching, or more appropriately, "pointing out" the effectiveness of abstinence as part of the education is part of the mix, so what?

They will still do as they want-at least they'll have been made aware of a method that works every time it is tried-a method that is conspicuous in it's absence from Planned Parenthood's considerable arsenal.

[ilw]

I agree of course that the money isn't wasted being spent on teaching the virtues of abstinence or on sending undoubtedly well trained staff to the affected areas, but I would add that abstinence will also be one of the options counselled by the Planned Parenthood group, its just that they will consider alternatives.

[Rat Faced]

The problem is that Bush appears to think that all these 3rd world countries have the same cuture as the USA and the rest of the western hemisphere.

...ie that women can say NO....that they have a choice.



In a lot of these cultures, women have no rights.

If a man wants sex, he takes it, and is rarely if ever prosecuted for Rape.



In addition, many women are forced into Prostitution, or in some cases Prostitution is just a way of life...a way to put food on the table.

They cant just "not put out", or their kids will starve.



Abstinance in these places is a non-starter.

[clocker]

"Just Say No" is a stupendously ineffective tactic to use in this instance.
Why waste taxpayer's money on a campaign that has zero chance of being effective?
I think in this case Bush is clearly using my money in a campaign to solidify his political position with the Christian voters.
In effect, American foreign aid has become just another political tool in the Republican reelection effort.

Bloody stupid waste of time and effort.

[j2k4]

Clocker:

"Just say no" is the anti-drug slogan.

Rat:

I think abstinence is actually a more applicable and effective principle here in the U.S. where women have a choice.

It would necessarily be less effective in a society such as you describe, but:

Clocker:

I'm pretty sure the mere mention of abstinence will neither harm the effort nor add significantly to it's cost.

ilw:

I am used to hearing Planned parenthood denounce abstinence as an ineffective and intrusive idea pushed by the right; indeed they seem to advocate "abstention" from abstinence-I don't believe they've changed their mind as to it's theoretical efficacy.

[clocker]

One-third of the new AIDS prevention money for Africa will be directed to groups that take narrow and ineffective approaches to HIV/AIDS prevention by excluding condoms and relying on "abstinence-only" messages. These are precisely the policies pushed by the President's right-wing base.

J2,
I am well aware that "Just Say No" is the official name for Nancy Reagan's
pitifully misguided foray into the War on Drugs.

I'm pretty sure the mere mention of abstinence will neither harm the effort nor add significantly to it's cost.

Diverting money from an organization with a proven track record to groups who's main approach is "JSN" won't add to the cost, simply dilute the potential effectiveness of the money spent. The "JSN" approach failed in San Diego, why think it will work in Sierra Leone?

[j2k4]

Actually, I have to say I haven't seen anything other than an abortion that could be said to work, so I guess I have nothing more to offer on the subject.

[liquidacid]

I've just read some truly horrible ranting by JPaul, where he accuses women who choose to end a pregnancy of commiting infanticide. What gives anyone the right to pass such damning judgement on so very many women?

infanticide noun 1 the murder of a young child or infant. 2 someone who murders a young child or infant. 3 the practice of killing newborn children. infanticidal adj.

From Chambers Dictionary

While it can certainly be argued at what stage of developement a foetus may be when an abortion takes place, you cannot refer to it as an infant.

Jpaul.
As i posted previously, the decision to terminate a pregancy must be the most heartbreaking decision a woman can make. What effect do you think your accusations could have on someone. Would you accuse someone, who'd had an abortion, of infanticide if they were in the same room, to their face? No, you would not. Can you imagine a woman crumpling in front of you, destroyed by your words?
While this is the internet, i think in this case you should still consider the effects your arrogant opinionatedness might have on someone.

I'm sure your going to condemn me as being too immature to be able to debate this topic. Well, i'm a (male) mental health nurse (grade G) with 11 years experience. I studied general nursing during my training and know exactly how traumatised a young woman can be following a terminated pregnancy. I also know that it is something very many woman never get over completely.




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