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Thread: Abortion Views

  1. #121
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Infested Cats-I just couldn't let this slide.


    Herewith The two key issues to focus on are: the nature of a fetus, and the nature of individual rights.

    Herewith, apparently, a nature lesson.

    The first issue to grasp is the difference between potential and actual. A fetus is not an actual human being, but is human tissue. A fetus is only a potential human being, just like an acorn is a potential oak tree. That a fetus is potential human being, does not make it an actual one. Once you grasp this point, you need to grasp a much more complex point — which is not self-evident — about the nature of rights.

    I have, in the past, been asked to "grasp the difference"; which request generally sets forth parameters of narrow enough scope as to exclude views at any remove from those one is requested to "differentiate" between. In this case, it presumes a conclusion which leaves unanswered the question of "When does life begin?". Infested Cats, I can't believe you have so quickly and cleanly disposed of an argument the country's greatest legal and scientific minds have yet to resolve.

    The second issue to grasp is that rights only apply to actual human beings. Rights only apply to human beings; they apply to human beings because man survives by reason. Men do not survive — at least for long — like animals do in the jungle. Rather then hunting for food like an animal, man grows it. He builds houses to protect himself from hurricanes and storms. He creates clothing to keep warm. He discovers drugs to kill bacteria that may cause him harm. He manufactures refrigerators to keep his food fresh. This is why man has rights — and animals do not — to leave his mind free to think, and his body free to act on that thinking. As a fetus does not use reason to survive; but, rather it survives on the sustenance provided by the body of its' host, a fetus has no rights, and no need for rights. A fetus has no right to life, liberty, property.

    Some may take issue with certain suppositions contained here; the issue of "animal rights"-it is correct that animals do not possess rights, at least not in the sense they are capable of exercising them in order to oppose the harmful intent of another animal or a human being. Humans instead concoct "rights", and attempt to exercise them for, or on behalf of, animals. Humans do this in order that animals might benefit from the human ability to offer them extraordinary protection.
    A human fetus is no more capable than an animal of requesting protection, but certain of us might argue it is no less deserving of same as the mere fact of having been born does not confer survivability, but it is legally sufficient (for now, at least) to reasonably ensure an adult will render care.



    The key issue in this context is that a fetus has no right to be inside the body of another human being, because no such right exists. Yet, this is the only kind of 'right' it requires to exist. To grant the fetus such a right, would make its host — the pregnant mother — a slave. Slavery is not a right.

    If this is an argument or analogy of some type, I cannot discern what it might be.

    This in essence is the case for a woman's moral right to abortion: a fetus is not an actual human being, but is only human tissue inside the body of an actual human being. Rights only apply to actual human beings (whether a new born child, or a hundred year old grandfather, or a pregnant woman), as they require freedom to act by the use of their mind.

    As morality is rooted in religion (no matter what anybody says to the contrary), I can use the principle of "Separation of Church and State" to zap this whole paragraph.

    Please try again, IC.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #122
    DarkBlizzard's Avatar Poster
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    Originally posted by Rat Faced@12 July 2003 - 15:39
    DarkBlizzard,

    thanks for the opinion...however you forgot to give your reasons.

    I suspect that they are religious in nature, however you havent gave an argument either way.
    I dont think abortion needs to be illegal because of anything that has to do with religion, EDIT: but it should be illegal.....im just saying it needs to be illegal cuz you shouldn't be killing a human just because you screwed up and did something that your taught not to do with some random person just because you "love" them....if some guy really does love a girl then he should marry her.....if she says no then they were not met for each other and that guy needs to just go find some other girl that does love him......then marry her and f*ck all day long. And if abortion was illegal i think it would greatly cut down on AIDS and other horrible diseases because the girls will know that if they have sex with the guy then she will probably get pregnant and WILL have that kid. Im sure none of you would like it if your parents werent married and they were in some hotel and decided to have sex and your mom got pregnant and she had you killed because she didnt care about you because your not at all important to her.

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #123
    Infested Cats's Avatar Mike Victory
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    Originally posted by j2k4@12 July 2003 - 20:31
    Please try again, IC.
    I'm sorry j2k4. I shouldn't have bothered trying in the first place. Right?

    I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just stating my opinion. Please don't accuse me of being "uninformed."

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #124
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Originally posted by Infested Cats+12 July 2003 - 21:01--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Infested Cats &#064; 12 July 2003 - 21:01)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@12 July 2003 - 20:31
    Please try again, IC.
    I&#39;m sorry j2k4. I shouldn&#39;t have bothered trying in the first place. Right?

    I&#39;m not trying to convince anyone, I&#39;m just stating my opinion. Please don&#39;t accuse me of being "uninformed."[/b][/quote]
    Not at all, IC.

    I&#39;m glad (believe it or not) you took the time; usually I find less to object to-I find your posting to be, shall we say, a bit original, but other than an anti-Bush bias and an occasional gripe about the government or "establishment" issues, you are usually sharper (I think) when you resort to reasoning.

    I didn&#39;t (don&#39;t) want to offend, but I discerned in your post a certain presumptuousness I felt I had to match.

    And we are all aware what a know-it-all I am, right?

    I have that problem-I surely do-but I&#39;m trying to remember to couch things as "my opinion only", and I&#39;m sure I forget as often as I remember.

    I regret giving you the impression you got, and will refrain from accusing you of being uninformed, as to do so would be "presumptuous".

    I&#39;ll continue to remember I&#39;m expressing my opinion if you do likewise-fair enough?
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #125
    clocker's Avatar Shovel Ready
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    Originally posted by DarkBlizzard+12 July 2003 - 18:50--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DarkBlizzard @ 12 July 2003 - 18:50)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@12 July 2003 - 15:39
    DarkBlizzard,

    thanks for the opinion...however you forgot to give your reasons.

    I suspect that they are religious in nature, however you havent gave an argument either way.
    I dont think abortion needs to be illegal because of anything that has to do with religion.....im just saying it needs to be illegal cuz you shouldn&#39;t be killing a human just because you screwed up and did something that your taught not to do with some random person just because you "love" them....if soem guy really does love a girl then he should marry her.....if she says no then they were not met for each other and that guy needs to just go find some other girl that does love him......then marry her and f*ck all day long. And if abortion was illegal i think it would greatly cut down on AIDS and other horrible diseases because the girls will know that if they have sex with the guy then she will probably get pregnant and WILL have that kid. Im sure none of you would like it if your parents werent married and they were in some hotel and decided to have sex and your mom got pregnant and she had you killed because she didnt care about you because your not at all important to her. [/b][/quote]
    DB,
    "I am the one who knocks."- Heisenberg

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #126
    Exactly Clocker,

    Sometimes the best response is no response.

    I think DB should quietly return to the lounge and venture back here in about 10 years.
    Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #127
    clocker's Avatar Shovel Ready
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    I shall try again...

    DB,
    You keep using one scenario as an exemplar of why abortion should be illegal. Although I have no doubt that such things occur, I don&#39;t think that your instance of &#39;bad behaviour&#39; rises to the level of universiality necessary to make an informed decision. In other words, it may happen, but not often enough to overshadow the occasions where irresponsibilty/wantoness played no part .

    Also, I believe that Africa is the area most severely tested by AIDS and I fail to see how banning abortion would help there. Cultural/religious/education issues are more to blame than "mates walking down street" looking for an easy shag.
    "I am the one who knocks."- Heisenberg

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #128
    DarkBlizzard's Avatar Poster
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    Originally posted by clocker@12 July 2003 - 22:42
    I shall try again...

    DB,
    You keep using one scenario as an exemplar of why abortion should be illegal. Although I have no doubt that such things occur, I don&#39;t think that your instance of &#39;bad behaviour&#39; rises to the level of universiality necessary to make an informed decision. In other words, it may happen, but not often enough to overshadow the occasions where irresponsibilty/wantoness played no part .

    Also, I believe that Africa is the area most severely tested by AIDS and I fail to see how banning abortion would help there. Cultural/religious/education issues are more to blame than "mates walking down street" looking for an easy shag.
    Im not saying anything about Africa...my opinions are about my country....the United States....and i do know alot of girls that have had abotions because they decided to go out and party and then took a test and found out they were pregnant so they had a abotion.....Abotion should only be legal in very few cases......like for example if there is some deadly disease that might spread to the child and make his/her like horrible if they are even able to live, though there chances of dead are few great.

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #129
    Originally posted by DarkBlizzard+13 July 2003 - 04:47--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DarkBlizzard @ 13 July 2003 - 04:47)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-clocker@12 July 2003 - 22:42
    I shall try again...

    DB,
    You keep using one scenario as an exemplar of why abortion should be illegal. Although I have no doubt that such things occur, I don&#39;t think that your instance of &#39;bad behaviour&#39; rises to the level of universiality necessary to make an informed decision. In other words, it may happen, but not often enough to overshadow the occasions where irresponsibilty/wantoness played no part .

    Also, I believe that Africa is the area most severely tested by AIDS and I fail to see how banning abortion would help there. Cultural/religious/education issues are more to blame than "mates walking down street" looking for an easy shag.
    Im not saying anything about Africa...my opinions are about my country....the United States....and i do know alot of girls that have had abotions because they decided to go out and party and then took a test and found out they were pregnant so they had a abotion.....Abotion should only be legal in very few cases......like for example if there is some deadly disease that might spread to the child and make his/her like horrible if they are even able to live, though there chances of dead are few great. [/b][/quote]
    DB,

    Are you 12 or what? The word is "Abortion", and requires an "r".


    You not only cannot spell or understand grammar, but you fail to grasp that the relationship between abortion and AIDS is zero.

    A deadly disease that will spread to the child, will kill the child. Why do you need to abort this one?

    Please, for the love of God, go back to the Lounge.
    Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #130
    A fetus is a baby. A baby is a baby. Killing a baby is wrong, not just religiously *************. Killing a baby outside, or killing a baby inside before being "born" is still killing a baby. And thats why aborting should be illegal.






    Personal comments are neither appropriate or acceptable in this topic especially.
    Keep your views to the topic without becoming insulting please.

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