Abortion Views

[clocker]

Originally posted by j2k4@3 July 2003 - 06:39


It does, however, make an excellent tool for the seeking of revenge, as we now see.

I personally do not know of any woman who has had an abortion simply to seek "revenge", although I'm willing to concede that it may happen.
I also was not using the "turnabout" example as a legal concept.
I simply think that after millenia of being the vessel ( willing or not) for the propogation of the species, women deserve the right to make at least as many bad decisions as men certainly have.
Perhaps they will do better.

I also do not advocate the practise of abortion as birth control, however, many anti-abortion advocates are also anti-birth control too. The luxury of ethical nicities is one that is just not affordable to a vast number of people in the world today.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by clocker+3 July 2003 - 07:59--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker &#064; 3 July 2003 - 07:59)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@3 July 2003 - 06:39


It does, however, make an excellent tool for the seeking of revenge, as we now see.

I personally do not know of any woman who has had an abortion simply to seek "revenge", although I&#39;m willing to concede that it may happen.
I also was not using the "turnabout" example as a legal concept.
I simply think that after millenia of being the vessel ( willing or not) for the propogation of the species, women deserve the right to make at least as many bad decisions as men certainly have.
Perhaps they will do better.

I also do not advocate the practise of abortion as birth control, however, many anti-abortion advocates are also anti-birth control too. The luxury of ethical nicities is one that is just not affordable to a vast number of people in the world today.[/b][/quote]
I should have widened my focus as re: "Turnabout, etc..."; I have seen this tactic used to justify such as slave reparations and college admissions, these days.

It is that type of reasoning that disturbs.

As to the revenge aspect, I&#39;ve had it done to me, but I would assert this was an act by an unbalanced person, and so hope I retain some objectivity on this point.

I, too, hope women will learn to treat this right to ultimate "control" responsibly, but I find myself surrounded by evidence the trend is in the opposite direction.

[the_faceman]

Thanks j24k.

I apologise for the "brigade" part, i see what you mean, but i was meaning those involved in campaigning without ever having a pregnancy scare (which myself and an ex-girlfriend had once, but turned out to be her hormones messing up. That was a life-changing period of time), or have had a child of their own, or like you pointed out, they have had a blessed life where decisions would be much easier to make.

I&#39;d never believe being financially comfortable is the key to happiness, you need love, family and friends among other things for that, but i do know from past experience that not having a lot of money is definitely a huge contribution to hardship and makes almost everything more difficult.

I&#39;d also like to add the fact that i think the timeline for abortion should be short, with it lengthening only in cases of medical worries and possibly in the rape instances.

Although i think that parents-to-be have the right to decide whether to continue the pregnancy, it is unacceptable for them to wait 6 or 7months before making a decision, as we all know a child can be born that much premature and still survive in some cases and lead a reasonably healthy life. The decision needs to be made as soon as possible.

I have to agree with you that good values and a sense of responsibility have to be instilled from a young age, and that putting it into practice is harder than the theory.

With regards to the media, it&#39;s because negative and shocking news sells better than positive news. Plenty of people make the most of their lives from terribly inhibiting circumstances, just as plenty of people from privelaged backgrounds manage to screw up what "seems" to be an easy road through life. The media moulds the majority of the public&#39;s perception on just about everything.

I don&#39;t want to offend anyone, but religion plays a huge part in ruining a lot of lives too, because certain religions see abortion as a huge sin, meaning a lot of lives are ruined because people blindly follow their faith (mind you - i suppose that was faith is, being able to let go and just follow regardless.)

I can understand why these views are held by certain religions, but what i can&#39;t understand is that they are also against contraception. If this was more widely accepted (Lot&#39;s of my friends are Catholics, and they tell me they don&#39;t use protection) then maybe abortions wouldn&#39;t be needed. Humans (and i think Dolphins too the last time i checked) are the only animals that have sex for "fun" so to speak, as well as to procreate, so surely we should be allowed to do it without fear of creating an unwanted pregnancy, and when we feel we are mature enough and ready to have a child we can stop using contraception methods and try for a child?

[clocker]

Originally posted by j2k4@3 July 2003 - 07:10


I, too, hope women will learn to treat this right to ultimate "control" responsibly, but I find myself surrounded by evidence the trend is in the opposite direction.

What evidence are you referring to?

[ilw]

Originally posted by the_faceman@3 July 2003 - 15:20

I&#39;d also like to add the fact that i think the timeline for abortion should be short, with it lengthening only in cases of medical worries and possibly in the rape instances.

Although i think that parents-to-be have the right to decide whether to continue the pregnancy, it is unacceptable for them to wait 6 or 7months before making a decision, as we all know a child can be born that much premature and still survive in some cases and lead a reasonably healthy life. The decision needs to be made as soon as possible.

I completely disagree with that first statement, the deadline has to be a biological/medical one for all people regardless of their personal circumstances. Why force some people into a rushed decision? Personally I think the current status of abortion laws in the EU is spot on, the limit for abortion is set so that the foetus will never experience pain or be in any way aware of its own demise and there is almost no way women can be forced to have a child they don&#39;t want.
As for the 2nd point, i don&#39;t htink theres a country in the world that thinks abortion at 6/7 months is legal/sensible as at that point the baby is almost completely formed

[the_faceman]

i didn&#39;t mean short as in weeks, the limits you mentioned that the EU currently uses would be ideal, no pain, no awareness.

And the 6/7 months thing was an exaggeration, as i suggested with the point that the baby could survive in many cases being born at that stage. i was emphasising that you couldn&#39;t wait til the last minute and then say "you know what? i&#39;ve changed my mind, i don&#39;t really think we should have this baby now".

I know for sure it&#39;s a decision that takes some serious thought, but it shouldn&#39;t take numerous months.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by clocker+3 July 2003 - 08:31--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker @ 3 July 2003 - 08:31)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@3 July 2003 - 07:10


I, too, hope women will learn to treat this right to ultimate "control" responsibly, but I find myself surrounded by evidence the trend is in the opposite direction.

What evidence are you referring to? [/b][/quote]
Colloquial evidence; friends, acquaintances, daughters of same, etc.

They seem to have no qualms over accessing the option nor suffer any guilt over discussion of their experiences.

the faceman-

Another heartfelt post, for which I thank you.

My point as regards the media was meant to highlight their ignorance of the necessity that they should serve as a tool for positive change; as this is undeniable, they should be chastised for their failures on this point, free press or no.

Also-for purposes of this debate, you might consider deleting any reference to religion, which is, I think, something that can only be argued separately.

[the_faceman]

i would normally, but i feel in this particular topic, that religion plays a significant role, and to leave it out with the interest of avoiding upsetting some people, would be like talking about Terminator 3 with no mention of Arnie.

I don&#39;t think that anyone would think that using contraception is a worse thing than abortion, so in my own view, those who do have a problem with both should consider the lesser of two evils in thier eyes, as increased usage of contraception would almost definitely reduce the numbers of those that see an abortion as the only solution. I&#39;d imagine encouraging the use of contraception would be much easier than encouraging abstinence.

Not to mention the role that some contraception methods play in reducing STD&#39;s, including life threatening diseases like AIDS. The number of children born with AIDS is very high, i could find a figure somewhere, but no-one could be sure how accurate it is. If an unborn child has the right to live, does it have the right to be born without such a serious disease too? But this part truly is for another topic, and i&#39;m not very knowledgeable on this matter, so i&#39;ll cut it off here.

And yes, the media should take more responsibility, maybe if it wasn&#39;t so "doom and gloom" all the time then people would stop thinking "whats the point of trying? the world is messed up anyways..." and would take heart from other people&#39;s positive experiences.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by the_faceman@3 July 2003 - 09:05
i would normally, but i feel in this particular topic, that religion plays a significant role, and to leave it out with the interest of avoiding upsetting some people, would be like talking about Terminator 3 with no mention of Arnie.

Another "on point" post; I hope others are reading your stuff.

I do not want to discount any affect, negative or positive, religion has/hasn&#39;t had on the question at hand; I only wish to point out the matter of the efficacy of abortion has no place in religion (as far as it is referred to at all)-it grows out of a rejection or omission of any religious aspect, and so should be considered entirely secular in nature, and discussed, or debated, similarly.

It should suffice to say merely that inclusion of "religion", and it&#39;s dictates or philosophies, renders debate moot, or impossible, and discussion of it&#39;s influence on the question of abortion is (generally) neither wanted nor productive.

The relationship between religion and abortion, you see, would require intellect we plainly do not possess.

Unless we are somehow harboring a P2P-friendly seminarian or possibly a likewise afflicted Jesuit scholar who could enlighten us?

[the_faceman]

Unless we are somehow harboring a P2P-friendly seminarian or possibly a likewise afflicted Jesuit scholar who could enlighten us?

i doubt it lol

I see your point. This will probably be my last post on the topic. I don&#39;t think many people are qualified to debate this properly. Rape victims, mothers and fathers, those who have suffered a miscarriage, those who have been put up for adoption (EDIT*- i had put &#39;abortion&#39, those brought up in a family without love, those who have had abortions themselves, these are all people that are truly able to argue for their beliefs on this matter, and i&#39;m not any of them. I&#39;m only 20, i feel my opinions are still valid, but will carry more weight when i&#39;m more experienced in life.