In Defense Of The United States Of America

[evilbagpuss]

hmm, he starts off with a valid point about the muslim women/veil issue. i.e you have to follow the laws of the land if you wish to live there. Its a shame it turns into drivel after that, Let me explain...

Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Since the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Americans. However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.
[/b]

What is the connection between patriotism and a woman wanting to wear a veil? It sounds like hes arguing that muslim women who want to wear veils for official photos are unpatriotic. Does that mean that any US citizen who disagrees with a specific aspect of US bureaucracy/law is unpatriotic? Perhaps Im missing an obvious link but the 2 things seem completely unrelated to me.

Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This idea of America being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.[/b]

He&#39;s really lost me at this point&#33; The USA has pretty much always been a multicultural community. He doesnt explain this statement at all. In a country as diverse as the USA with its multitude of religeons and races, "our national identity" is a rather ambiguous phrase. I can only assume "our national identity" is a white christian one as he doesnt define the phrase.

His point about language is one I agree with, if I ever emigrate I will, out of respect, learn the lingo of the land.

<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@
In God We Trust" is our national motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.
[/quote]

This bit irritates me. What does he mean by God? A Christian god? A Jewish one? A <insert religeon here> God? Is he arguing everyone should be Christian in the USA? Is he arguing everyone should be religeous in some form or another? Does this mean atheists are unpatriotic? If hes not arguing these points then is he saying people should lie when taking the oath of allegiance ("one nation under god")? Again, more ambiguity. The point about the seperation of church and state has been covered already but its a very important one in this context.

<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4
If Stars and Stripes offend you, or you don&#39;t like Uncle Sam, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don&#39;t care how you did things where you came from. This is OUR COUNTRY, our land, and our life style. Our First Amendment gives every citizen the right to express his opinion and we will allow you every opportunity to do so&#33; But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about our flag, our pledge, our national motto, or our way of life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great American freedom, THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.
[/quote]

Who is "we"? White Christians? What is "our culture", "our lifestyle"? In the melting pot that is the USA where you have, and always have had a load of different cultures/lifestyles, this point is pretty baseless.

He seems to be arguing for and against diversity in one fell swoop. You have the right to express yourself but if you are critical of the status quo he suggests you "get out of town"&#33;&#33; Perhaps he needs reminding that many white christians (I assume this is "we") are also critical of many areas of US life. After all they are hardly a bunch of androids who agree with everything about the US way of doing things or every minute detail of US bureaucracy. Do they need to "get out of town" too? Or does that only apply to non-white, non-christians?

Conclusion: Ambiguous rubbish starting off with a valid point and covered in pseudo-patriotism to make it more &#39;palatable&#39;.

[3RA1N1AC]

if you don&#39;t like immigrant culture and foreign languages, then america is obviously not the country for you, so feel free to quit complaining and GET OUT.

[J'Pol]

What the author of the article appears to think is that people of different beliefs are all first generation immigrants.

This whole, if you don&#39;t think the same as me then go home thing is preposterous. A lot of the people who don&#39;t think the same as him were born and raised in the USA, it&#39;s just that their parents chose to raise them in their own cultural heritage.

That is entirely different from the concept that people should be willing to abide by the laws of the country which they live in. If they chose not to and leave that is entirely a matter for them.

If however they chose not to abide by the rules and stay then the law enforcement community should deal with the situation. If you don&#39;t want your photograph taken, no problem, no driving licence or passport. If you chose not to wear a crash helmet (UK thing) fine, don&#39;t ride a motorcycle on the public road. If you do you will get arrested - just like everyone else.

Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. They also have the right to face the consequences of breaking the rules that the majority have agreed upon. It&#39;s not a difficult concept.

[3RA1N1AC]

what this veiled woman did was as american as apple pie. if you have a problem with a law in america, you can go to court and challenge it. the court may agree with you or disagree with you, but that is a freedom allowed to everyone in america.

[MagicNakor]

I must say there there really isn&#39;t a coherent point to this, he starts off saying one thing, switches to another, and then switches again. It&#39;s almost reminiscent of a high school paper. As such, it&#39;s rather difficult to either take a for or against stance on it, since one&#39;d be knee-deep in mush.

[j2k4]

I think the author&#39;s point about the "right to leave" is this:

Certain citizens have, literally, nothing positive to say about the U.S.; they are as negative about this country as the proverbial "superpatriot" is positive.

I would like to use the analogy of a person sitting on a tack-would it make more sense to rise, and thus remove the tack, or better to stay seated and complain?

Frankly I&#39;d prefer to hear complaints about something else, as I have enough of my own about my country.

EBP-you seem to consider yourself knowledgable enough about the U.S. to denigrate it and a good percentage of it&#39;s citizens, holding forth judgement upon judgement; what made you such a student of the U.S.?

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by j2k4
EBP-you seem to consider yourself knowledgable enough about the U.S. to denigrate it and a good percentage of it&#39;s citizens, holding forth judgement upon judgement; what made you such a student of the U.S.?

Here we go again.... this is a carbon copy of the "The Flame Has Gone Out Under The Melting Pot" thread.

1) j2k4 posts an article.
2) A general consensus is reached that the article isn&#39;t really up to scratch.
3) j2k4 responds by initiating a "j2k4 vs EBP" battle.

At the risk of playing into your hands.... Can you show me precisely where I have denigrated the US and it&#39;s citizens in this thread?

[j2k4]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss+4 July 2003 - 18:36--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (evilbagpuss @ 4 July 2003 - 18:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4
EBP-you seem to consider yourself knowledgable enough about the U.S. to denigrate it and a good percentage of it&#39;s citizens, holding forth judgement upon judgement; what made you such a student of the U.S.?

Here we go again.... this is a carbon copy of the "The Flame Has Gone Out Under The Melting Pot" thread.

1) j2k4 posts an article.
2) A general consensus is reached that the article isn&#39;t really up to scratch.
3) j2k4 responds by initiating a "j2k4 vs EBP" battle.

At the risk of playing into your hands.... Can you show me precisely where I have denigrated the US and it&#39;s citizens in this thread? [/b][/quote]
Never mind.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by j2k4
Never mind.

I&#39;m sorry but I do mind when people throw accusations at me but refuse to support them.

If "never mind" = an apology or a retraction of said accusation... dont worry about it.

[echidna]

Originally posted by myfiles3000@5 July 2003 - 00:46
-- the point is, there IS NO single cultural identity in any modern open society....this is the basic flaw of the commentary, just as flawed and and inevitably extinct as slavery.

precisely
and coincidentally chirac is on a very similar trip which i hope serves to remind some of the francophobes of the concurrence of policy, after all the idea of a nation was a french one

i have to point out that &#39;ethnic communities&#39; or subcultures or what ever, preserve and develop crafts and music and theatre and most importantly food, which came with the immigrants or the communities immigrant fore bares
there is just to much good cooking involved to treat it too flippantly, i would find my country a far poorer place without the fabulous food halls of city chinatowns, the excellent variations of kebabs and falafel [christian, Muslim and Israeli in different regions and all soooo tasty] not to mention the indian communities and the turkish sweets and the vietnamese bakers or the japanese [and korean] sushi explosion
then, there is the succulent grease of the fish and chip shop legacy/tradition from the masses of Catholic dissidents transported from ireland and the prohibition for catholics to eat &#39;meat&#39; on friday [hey popey isn&#39;t a fish an animal?]
italian coffee turkish coffee there is to much to mention
mono-culturalists are tongue traitors