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Thread: My (overly)patriotic Post

  1. #1
    Patriotism is much like drinking. People who drink more than I do are alcoholics and people who drink less need to loosen up a little.
    Patriotism is a good thing, right? I for one would hate to be in a country where the populace resented/feared/opposed the governing body. It is a great luxury to be proud of where you are from. Patriotism does not mean you are fully happy, but you feel that a system is in place that you can work with to effect change.
    It seems to me that whenever an American speaks out in favor of his country, he is given the label "blindly patriotic". Sort of unfairly puts the burden of proof on the accused.




    Why is the American so poised to defend his country? Are we all walking, talking Bush drones. No, not really. In fact, Americans in general don't talk about politics. They talk about sports, the weather, and those Goddamned kids today. We are not, as a whole, interested in the subject. Why? Because although things are not perfect here, we really don't have to. Our president is our greatest source for parody, tune into SNL sometime. This is a good thing.
    I learned in Spanish class how passionate South Americans are about politics and how it is a real nidus for discussion among friends. This does not reflect a fundamental difference between us and them, but rather for them, it is a matter of necessity.



    Why do we come off so vehemently patriotic if we are not really interested in politics? Human nature, simple as that.
    For example, if young EBP goes to his brother and complains that their f*cking sister is a bitch, because she told Mom about his stash and got him grounded, that is ok. There is the tacit understanding that although he is mad at her right now, he still loves her in that unique sibling/family unit way.
    Young EBP then goes to buy some smokes. On the way to the store his sisters' boyfriend says, "I f*cked your sister, that bitch". EBP then procedes to go medievil on his ass. Why? These two have no such tacit agreement. Respect/love for the sister is not a given.


    This is akin to Clocker and J2K4 in disagreement. They are unified by a pride in their country (the tacit understanding), but differ as to what course it should take to a successful future.
    Compare this to J2K4 and EBP/Myfiles/Echidna. These outsiders they tend to post inflammatory anti-American government threads with regularity. Without a common understanding, J2's natural instincts are to protect his FAMILY (the US) as he/we have been disrespected.

    So if non-Americans want to engage us in discussion, bring forth your concerns, not in the form of scathing articles, but with kidgloves. Take it from me, you can effect people more with sugar than vinegar (it took me some time to learn this). Otherwise it just appears that you are just trying to piss us off. Like I said before, pelting us with rocks from behind your bush. That is ok, every now and then, we all get really pissed on occassion, but try not to make it the rule.


    Well, it's getting dark here, time to go blow something up!
    Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #2
    Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Compare this to J2K4 and EBP/Myfiles/Echidna. These outsiders they tend to post inflammatory anti-American government threads with regularity.[/b]


    I take great offence at that. Many aspects of US foreign policy bother me greatly, I admit it freely and I dont see anything wrong with expressing that view. What bothers me is that you can talk about things such as the US toppling democratically elected Gvts and installing dictators (Chile 1973) and all of a sudden theres a huge furore, like installing dictators is a god given right that the US holds.

    I cant think of any other reason asides from blind patriotism or more accurately misguided patriotism as to why someone would defend this sort of thing.

    Imho a real patriot would be putting as much pressure on his Gvt as possible to stop doing such things, not defending them.

    I also assume you missed my approval of the US sending troops to Liberia. I may be opinionated, I will grant you that, but I am not a partisan.

    As for being an outsider the reality of todays world is that US actions affect just about everyone. Thus I feel we &#39;outsiders&#39; have a right to debate them.

    For what must be the umpteenth time, if you wish to criticise my Gvt for doing equally immoral things feel free. If your facts are correct and your reasoning logical I will most likely agree with you 100%.

    Thats the difference between real patriotism and the "defend everything, accuse anyone who disagrees with US foreign policy as being anti-American and NEVER SURRENDER" attitude which I find both depressing and dangerous.

    <!--QuoteBegin-hobbes

    Without a common understanding, J2&#39;s natural instincts are to protect his FAMILY (the US) as he/we have been disrespected[/quote]

    Its not a matter of anything as childish as "disrespecting" the USA. In all sincerity I am extremely worried about where US foreign policy is taking the world these days.

    For your information I strongly admire the ideals the US is meant to stand for. Free speech, equality of opportunity, democracy etc. I am unable to see how I can be anti-American yet admire these qualities at the same time. Perhaps if these qualities were the basis of US foreign policy you would be criticising me for boring everyone to death with consistent praise for the USA.

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #3
    I re-read my post after reading your reply.

    I think my post reads exactly as I want it, and for the open-minded, it will be well received as an exercise in understanding human nature.

    As for you, have a good night. Hope you re-read my post again sometime and think about my intent. A personal attack, an attempt to muzzle non-Americans, a denial to allow debate, no- not what it was about. In fact, it didn&#39;t attempt to justify or even support the actions of my government. It was simply an exercise in understanding what motivates people to respond in the manner they do.

    If you thought my use of your name was a poke specifically at you, and this set you off, I apologise sincerely. You were just the last person to post in this forum.
    Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #4
    I got the point of your post hobbes.

    I feel that these issues are almost always tackled in a calm and collected manner, yet the same response always comes back at you no matter how delicately you put it.

    "Your anti-American.. " over and over again till its imprinted on your brain.

    Then the personal attacks begin etc etc

    Im not saying this applies to you or to everyone on this forum but its definitely a common pattern in many of these threads. For some people "your anti-American" has almost become a mantra to ward off evil&#33;

    I honestly dont think its related to the way the argument is put across, which as I understand it is the main thrust of the "what motivates people to respond in the manner they do" aspect of your post.

    I hope you have a good night too

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #5
    kAb's Avatar Poster
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    you should see our liberals


    "DOWN WITH THE GOVERNMENT&#33; THEY ARE ALL CROOKS&#33; BOOOOOO&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

    what? me leave america? no f**king way&#33;"


  6. The Drawing Room   -   #6
    echidna's Avatar Poster
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    hobbes, you pointed out the very reason i find reading here most interesting
    Originally posted by hobbes
    Why is the American so poised to defend his country? Are we all walking, talking Bush drones. No, not really. In fact, Americans in general don&#39;t talk about politics. They talk about sports, the weather, and those Goddamned kids today. We are not, as a whole, interested in the subject. Why? Because although things are not perfect here, we really don&#39;t have to. Our president is our greatest source for parody, tune into SNL sometime. This is a good thing.
    i agree that patriotism [for lack of a better word, but passion for the &#39;place&#39; you&#39;re from] provides much of the spice in our babbles, and it just wouldn&#39;t be the same without it

    it is mainly only to some of DarkBlizzard&#39;s and S&A&#39;s reflex reposts of my posts, which made no attempt to debase the posts claims but to broadly deride the post as biased beyond consideration, that i direct any imputation of &#39;blind&#39; patriotism
    i&#39;m sorry if other more reflective americans got the impression that i felt you shared any myopia in your love of your home

    it is that very passion underlying the posts of the likes of hobbes, clocker and the more revealing posts of j2k4 & S&A, which makes me value the opportunity to bounce words off all of your heads

    you all have cogent reasons for why you value the things and ideas you support, and it[politics i guess?] is very under stated and seldom publicly discussed in the english speaking world, i have grown to feel this lack of political discussion is a deficit our cultures can little afford
    our governments wield insane powers, and though we may be mere tax pumps, it is often said that the failing of the german people in the &#39;30s was that good people did and said nothing

    the reason i participate here is specifically because i value the diversity of the opinions articulated here, if i am so anti-USA why do i want to read what americans have to say so regularly?
    the premise for which this forum exists is software for which we are all said to be peers, and i want to know the opinions of my peers and the reasons they have for holding those opinions,
    because we are all peers in much more tangible ways, we bleed, we laugh, we feel security, pain and fear and we are literate [more or less]
    and also because these conversations [or arguments or debates] so rarely occur
    this unlikely place gives us a chance to hear ordinary soapbox speakers across the globe

    PS. i&#39;m too sleep deprived and will now cease rambling
    shalom

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #7
    Rat Faced's Avatar Broken
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    I consider myself patriotic.

    However, that does not mean i will agree with what my Government is doing in my name, necessarily....thats just "head in the sand"

    An It Harm None, Do What You Will

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #8
    Originally posted by Rat Faced@5 July 2003 - 18:02
    I consider myself patriotic.

    However, that does not mean i will agree with what my Government is doing in my name, necessarily....thats just "head in the sand"
    Rat,

    Who or what was that directed at? From the original post:

    "Patriotism does not mean you are fully happy, but you feel that a system is in place that you can work with to effect change."

    I think we have a good system of government. I believe in the principles on which my country was founded, I believe that I have the ability to work with system to make change when the actions of my government disappoint me and I certainly have the right to call "foul" when I see it."

    You should watch Meet the Press. Five guys sit around and discuss how Bush is dealing with the current issues on national television. You would hardly call what comes from this show "blind patriotism" as it can be a bit h4r5h, but at the end of the day, they still go home proud to be Americans.

    I fail to see how I can be seen as someone with his head in the sand.
    Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #9
    And now that&#39;s enough about the USA for today. One would think it&#39;s the only country in the world. One day the USA could, if they play their cards right, become a very important country; if they don&#39;t spend all their money on weapons(of mass destruction).
    One interesting point that came out of it all, that a common language, binds communities together; language a sort super glue. I read a report, that one day, the common language on Earth will be Chinese. So deflate your ego&#39;s come down to Earth and join us, the common people. Together we shall find a better way.

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #10
    Originally posted by denis123@6 July 2003 - 00:18
    And now that&#39;s enough about the USA for today. One would think it&#39;s the only country in the world. One day the USA could, if they play their cards right, become a very important country; if they don&#39;t spend all their money on weapons(of mass destruction).
    One interesting point that came out of it all, that a common language, binds communities together; language a sort super glue. I read a report, that one day, the common language on Earth will be Chinese. So deflate your ego&#39;s come down to Earth and join us, the common people. Together we shall find a better way.
    Quit pouring eggdrop soup on my tirade, errr, parade.


    D-man, is this the thread you meant to post on? Seems that it would be more appropriate on another similar one.
    Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?

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