Someone pls explain why

[manicgeek]

Snee

You might like to know that those poor ill educated and informed Japanese people who had western ways forced upon them actually taught western ways to their people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangaku

Mind you that kind of blows a hole in your theory about their feudal society not being able to cope with western knowledge and technologies... sorry about that.

[Snee]

None of my business like, Snee.

However feeding trolls, particularly such obvious ones doesn't strike me as your style.

What is it with you JP... ?

That is the second time you have called me a troll... now I would suggest you put the fuck up and prove I'm a troll or STFU...

...

Bollocks! Cloud cuckoo land nice today is it ?

Would sort of suggest that you are looking to be offensive rather than discuss something that you personally percieve to be a flawed assertion, as would the subsequent selective reading done by your very self later on.

But what do I know.

[manicgeek]

Exotic curiosities...yes, like a fleet of steam ships, and modern weaponry.

Oh, no, wait, that was after 1854, silly me.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the term the west, as I'm using it. I'm referring to Europe and the Americas, perhaps you've heard of them?..

Nope... there's no mention of steam ships in what I posted... or modern weaponry... are you sure you're replying to the right thread ?

...doesn't quite sound like it.

They let emissaries from "local" nations travel to the shogunate seat AND did some trading with other countries in the region, though, that's got to mean something. Well, not really anything wrt what I've been saying, or them turning expansionist after having the merkins pressure them, but still.

EDit: Ryukyu was running frikkin Okinawa as late as 179 according to wikipedia, I did not know that, kewl.

Hmmm funny how they knew all about our ways before they opened up trade... yet only turned expansionist as the shogunate collapsed... not that the collapse of the shogunate could possibly have anything to do with the change in Japans relationship with the world... I mean it was only them who imposed by military force and massacres the closure of trade to begin with wasn't it ?

They considered foreign influence to be a forerunner to a western invasion of Japan... yet they set up schools and taught western sciences and medicine... so it wasn't that they weren't happy to trade with others... they just liked the security of dealing with people they knew then ?

[manicgeek]

Would sort of suggest that you are looking to be offensive rather than discuss something that you personally percieve to be a flawed assertion, as would the subsequent selective reading done by your very self later on.

But what do I know.

Ah! Selective.. like not mentioning the Chinese you mean, or ignoring the Japanese setting up schools and educating their people in western ways and technology... that kind of selective you mean ?

You may not like that I'm blunt, just as JP apparently can't handle it, that's hardly my problem.

JP not up to putting his money where his mouth is then is it ?

[manicgeek]

In fact I'll tell you why I was so blunt... your post, the one I responded to was insulting to the Japanese, to suggest that they couldn't handle western ways and technology, when in reality they were actually better educated in our ways and technology than most nations of the pacific region at that time, indeed it was their very knowledge of our ways and technology that allowed them to exercise their expansionist dreams.

[Snee]

Snee

You might like to know that those poor ill educated and informed Japanese people who had western ways forced upon them actually taught western ways to their people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangaku

Mind you that kind of blows a hole in your theory about their feudal society not being able to cope with western knowledge and technologies... sorry about that.

First of all, a feudal society implies a certain structure, not a level of knowledge "poor ill educated and informed" has exactly fuckall to do with societal structure, literacy and so forth.

Second of all, knowledge in medicine, architecture indoor-plumbing, basic science, microscopes and so forth does not equal bluprints for instruments of war. It can be argued that rangaku helped build a foundation for the rampant modernization after 1854 (1853 really, bakamatsu as that article calls it started then, after Perry's first visit), this is true, but the first actual steamship Japan had, for instance, was given to them in 1855 by the dutch, other ships were built for them by the british, and at the same time they'd started sending people off to check out the rest of the world.

Try as you might, there's no disputing that they did turn from insular to expansionist after 1854, having had a fleet of modern warships paraded in front of them, and that that's when they started building a modern army.

[Snee]

Would sort of suggest that you are looking to be offensive rather than discuss something that you personally percieve to be a flawed assertion, as would the subsequent selective reading done by your very self later on.

But what do I know.

Ah! Selective.. like not mentioning the Chinese you mean, or ignoring the Japanese setting up schools and educating their people in western ways and technology... that kind of selective you mean?

I'm beginning to think you are a bit thick, tbh.

In fact I'll tell you why I was so blunt... your post, the one I responded to was insulting to the Japanese, to suggest that they couldn't handle western ways and technology, when in reality they were actually better educated in our ways and technology than most nations of the pacific region at that time, indeed it was their very knowledge of our ways and technology that allowed them to exercise their expansionist dreams.

Same goes for this.^

Sorry 'bout being blunt, but I think you are a bit of a jackass.

[manicgeek]

First of all, a feudal society implies a certain structure, not a level of knowledge "poor ill educated and informed" has exactly fuckall to do with societal structure, literacy and so forth.

Second of all, knowledge in medicine, architecture indoor-plumbing, basic science, microscopes and so forth does not equal bluprints for instruments of war. It can be argued that rangaku helped build a foundation for the rampant modernization after 1854 (1853 really, bakamatsu as that article calls it started then, after Perry's first visit), this is true, but the first actual steamship Japan had, for instance, was given to them in 1855 by the dutch, other ships were built for them by the british, and at the same time they'd started sending people off to check out the rest of the world.

Try as you might, there's no disputing that they did turn from insular to expansionist after 1854, having had a fleet of modern warships paraded in front of them, and that that's when they started building a modern army.

No you portrayed them as having been backwards and ill informed, unable to cope with the technology and the knowledge, and that was wrong because they weren't. Their expansionist dreams and acts where theirs and theirs alone.

I know it's popular in western countries at the moment to blame the west for everything bad that has ever happened to anyone, anywhere, at anytime, but that is a load of bollock. There are bad people the world over, there have been bad people the world over since time began, and there will always be bad people the world over. Blaming the west for it won't change anything.

[manicgeek]

I'm beginning to think you are a bit thick, tbh.

Same goes for this.^

Sorry 'bout being blunt, but I think you are a bit of a jackass.

So you are from the same mold as JP then

One of them who comes on the internet and spouts crap and resorts to name calling when your arguments are challenged... Hmmm big clever man eh ?

[Squeamous]

I think what Snee was saying was that the Japanese have every right to have a complex against the West since the West apparently dragged them kicking and screaming into the 20th century and bombed the fuck out of them in WW2.

I think that's probably just as you say, the result of having a Western guilt complex. As I've said a few pages back, the Japanese are doing exceptionally well out of being a world power and I've never got the impression there's any bitterness towards the West in that regard. They will keep bleating on about the atom bombs but if they weren't such a proud people only one of those bombs need have gone off, and it was their choice to enter WW2 anyway.

Throughout history nations and empires have been exposed to external influence. It's how the world moves on. To suggest that anyone has a right to be upset about that is a nonsense.