Someone pls explain why

[Something Else]

/Moved to drawing room as it's too early and your giving me a headache.

[Squeamous]

No mention of the expansionist ambitions of the Japanese before the shogunate closed off Japan to foreign contact and virtually imprisoned the people of Japan then, or of the massacres that were committed of Japanese people who dared to become Christian 30,000 wasn't it... sliced and diced according to the 'warriors way' eh?

Which position are you taking - that they were open to Western influence prior to Imperial incursions into the Far East or that they were insular and tended to view foreign influence with a degree of hostility?

The Chinese did not exactly go a bundle on foreign influences either but like the Japanese were interested in trade and science. Would the Japanese have contemplated war with America in 41 if US influence had not extended across the Pacific?

I'm sure if no-one ever came into contact with anyone else there would never be any wars.

I don't know how this particular branch of the discussion got going or what purpose it serves.

Is the question 'is America at fault for Japan joining in in WW2'?

[Biggles]

I was demonstrating that Japan had encountered the negative as well as the positive aspects of Imperial expansion and that Snee's point that this had encouraged their own military expansion was not an unsound one.

The use of nuclear weapons is another matter and one that was controversial at the time. Yes, it hurried the end of the war but there is much in the argument that the primary aim was to prevent the Russian army entering from the north of Japan resulting in another iron curtain in another part of the world. Peace negotians were already under way and a wholesale bloody invasion was not likely to happen. A fact that supports the view that the bombs had a broader political purpose was that the key demand of the Japanese in the peace overtures (that the Emperor stay) was granted despite Japan's "unconditional" surrender after the bombing. However, that is by and by.

WTF were we talking about again - how did we get to tentacle pron to this?

Mmmm, but the words 'key demand' are important here. That wasn't their only demand. What they basically wanted was to save face, and to surrender in deed but not in name. They wanted to keep a lot of their infrastructure and politics operating not just their monarchy. I'm not surprised the cheeky bastards got nuked a second time.

True but under unconditional surrender you get nowt. The ruling powers of Japan fared rather better than those of Germany.

[Something Else]

You two should have a game of Go to settle it.

[Squeamous]

True but under unconditional surrender you get nowt. The ruling powers of Japan fared rather better than those of Germany.

Mmmmm, under unconditional surrender the victor gets to say what you get, that's all.

Do you not think Germany had a lot more to answer for?

[Biggles]

Which position are you taking - that they were open to Western influence prior to Imperial incursions into the Far East or that they were insular and tended to view foreign influence with a degree of hostility?

The Chinese did not exactly go a bundle on foreign influences either but like the Japanese were interested in trade and science. Would the Japanese have contemplated war with America in 41 if US influence had not extended across the Pacific?

I'm sure if no-one ever came into contact with anyone else there would never be any wars.

I don't know how this particular branch of the discussion got going or what purpose it serves.

Is the question 'is America at fault for Japan joining in in WW2'?

Not sure to be honest - Snee was pointing out that modern Japan was nothing like as bad as Submission was suggesting and got picked up on a comment regarding the history of Japan which has wheeled the whole discussion well away from the much more fascinating topic of tentacle pron (which as far as I am aware can never actually happen irl).

[manicgeek]

Which position are you taking - that they were open to Western influence prior to Imperial incursions into the Far East or that they were insular and tended to view foreign influence with a degree of hostility?

The Chinese did not exactly go a bundle on foreign influences either but like the Japanese were interested in trade and science. Would the Japanese have contemplated war with America in 41 if US influence had not extended across the Pacific?

Oh mine is a simple position, the Japanese weren't ill-informed, they weren't backwards. The shogunate collapsed and Japan again looked outwards as they had before. Now you may argue that the American squadron hastened the collapse of the shogunate, in which case surely you'd be arguing for the facts that by doing so the Americans returned freedom to the people of Japan, who were virtually imprisoned by the shogunate.

[Squeamous]

Not sure to be honest - Snee was pointing out that modern Japan was nothing like as bad as Submission was suggesting and got picked up on a comment regarding the history of Japan which has wheeled the whole discussion well away from the much more fascinating topic of tentacle pron (which as far as I am aware can never actually happen irl).

Nah, what started this was his response to me. I was saying the Japs didn't have any right to be more upset than anyone else about WW2, nuke or no. He countered by saying they've always been bullied by the rest of the world etc etc. There followed a Wiki-based argument where two people selectively pull bits out of net sources in an attempt to prove their point. I have failed to bring the discussion around to the original point.

What's tentacle porn?

[Biggles]

True but under unconditional surrender you get nowt. The ruling powers of Japan fared rather better than those of Germany.

Mmmmm, under unconditional surrender the victor gets to say what you get, that's all.

Do you not think Germany had a lot more to answer for?

Japan was responsible for some naughty stuff too. I do lean towards the view that the surrender and the role of the nuclear weapons were not a complete match and that the US had a broader political purpose in utilising the weapons. One might view this as immoral or amoral but the Red Army had become a formidable force and Truman needed a lever in negotiating the post war world with Stalin.

[Biggles]

Not sure to be honest - Snee was pointing out that modern Japan was nothing like as bad as Submission was suggesting and got picked up on a comment regarding the history of Japan which has wheeled the whole discussion well away from the much more fascinating topic of tentacle pron (which as far as I am aware can never actually happen irl).

Nah, what started this was his response to me. I was saying the Japs didn't have any right to be more upset than anyone else about WW2, nuke or no. He countered by saying they've always been bullied by the rest of the world etc etc. There followed a Wiki-based argument where two people selectively pull bits out of net sources in an attempt to prove their point. I have failed to bring the discussion around to the original point.

What's tentacle porn?

Wiki arguments are cool

The Japanese have a fetish for tentacle sex - must be all the seafood Obviously this is not a practical proposition irl but I am informed it is popular in cartoons - so SGG tells me anyhoo.