Do "boot Camps" (courtesy Of S. J. Raphael.)

[Everose]

LiquidAcid, thank you for your input on this thread. Your mental health experience is to be admired and respected.

Before I relayed my own experience with troubled children, I reviewed other threads that Neil had posted. My opinion is he has a strong history of 'baiting' Americans, lumping us all together in an action made by a few. That usually would be enough for me to dismiss a post and not lower myself to take the bait.

My lengthy post was really in response to this ignorant generalization by Neil, and to also support Balaam. I should have stated these reasons for my post.

As a medical health nurse, I know you are aware of all the difference in temperment in people. I grew up with these differences pointed out to me on a daily basis as my Mother is a mental health nurse, as you are, and has been for thirty years..

Originally I was put off by Balaam's emotive responses at times on this board, also. But as I watched I understood more. Balaam feels things very deeply. A lot deeper than most people. Whether it be a supposedly 'good' or a 'bad' emotion.....his will always be stronger than the rest of ours. While I was trained to use my brain to temper my emotions, I sometimes wish I could have such passion as Balaam has. He feels deeply and he reacts strongly when a nerve is hit that he feels deeply about. If he is able to remain objective, he does fine.

I read what the internet had to offer, both pro and con on the subject. I do think Balaam and I were both thinking of the therapeutic boot camps where structure, and support and constructive discipline was given to the child. And I don't think sending a child to this type of boot camp would be 'abandoning a child' as Neil suggested.

Sometimes when a parent is living this nightmare, in the thick of it.....there is no place to go with their frustration, anger and resentment. The last think you want to do is respond to an angry out of control child with these emotions. I felt like Balaam needed to release this frustration, having lived it myself. I was fortunate that I had my Mother during this time, and all of her calm wisdom.

I see that Neil knows exactly what he is doing, knows just how to bait Balaam and which strings to pull. Neil's behavior is like a child in that a child needs attention, and if not given, will keep pushing buttons until he receives attention.....even if it is bad attention.

And when we corner him, he disappears....but reappears as at least three other people that I am aware of.

You are right. He is entitled to his opinion, we all are. How boring this board would be if we all answered and conversed in a very non-passionate, calm, manner. Yes, Balaam feels deep and will jump all over those he feels are posting in a detremental way or jeopardizing this board and it's policies in any way. It is because he cares. How refreshing that is.

Okay....enough..... Thanks, Rat Faced for pointing out that a few things need clarified here. He threw the bait, and against my better judgement, I jumped for it. Live and learn, right? Well, hopefully so!!!

Take care, all.

Neverose

[Everose]

Originally posted by Neil__@2 August 2003 - 17:35


balamm if you look a little further then you will see that I only took to task those who abuse the "privalage"

Neil

Had you said 'some Americans' instead of 'American Parents' in your original statement, Neil, I could believe this. And I could also believe your intentions were as innocent as you are trying to portray them to be.

[balamm]

Originally posted by liquidacid@3 August 2003 - 16:46
First and foremost, everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. From what i can see, Neil is stating opposition to the American style 'Boot Camps' for children. I don't understand why this is such a problem.

Is he? Normally, when such a topic is started in this section of the forum, the person who poses it is expected to give some background, refferences, reasons, alternatives, something more than "Americans are abusing their children and I don't like it".

What i find disturbing is that you feel it necessary to refer to emotive subjects, such as rape and child abuse, to win a petty argument, and then resort to name-calling.

Are the facts that lead a parent to a decision of strong action not permitted?

Are the details that led to my decision to take strong action with my child not permitted?

My surviving children were both sexually assualted and physically abused by their older sister beginning at age 4 or earlier. Would they also be subject to your rath if they spoke of it?

If I didn't have the knowledge, or first hand knowledge to comment, then I would hope to be responsible enough to know that I had no business passing judgement on those who do.

It's not about winning an arguement. It's about pointing out irresponsible or baseless comments that have the potential to harm others; parents or children.



Look a bit deeper at the range of topics posted by Neil over the past day or two and you will see that he is clearly trying to provoke anti americanism.

I am not American but I still have a problem with this attitude. As I'm sure others might have if I started as many anti British or Europian topics.

I had no thoughts about Neil one way or other before this. As I've said before, he holds himself in too high regard in this matter.

A troll is a troll though and I will point that out in any case!


Your own thoughts on the debate are more thoughtfull and informed however and what I had hoped to see more of in this thread.

[Ron]

I've been in a Belgian juvenile halls couple of time when I was a kid.
Twice in one of them.
I think you can compare it to jail, really.
It will do some good for some, but it will also make some kids even more rebellious.
(I was one of those)
Still, most of the times, it's the only option parents have to have a normal life.
You're not even allowed to spank your kid, so what should you do if he burns your house down? Call your insurance, and build a new one? And another one, and another one?
Although I hated it down there, it has its good side too.
If only one kid gets saved from a life of crime, it's a good thing.
Means justify the manner then.
Just get rid of the powerhungry guards in there, they only make things worse.
Lock up makes a kid think.
In extreme cases isolation cells can even be a solution, but they should abolish the beatings IMO.
Just my 2 p.

[james_bond_rulez]

Originally posted by Neil__@1 August 2003 - 20:56
Or is it the American parents' choice.

To Abuse their CHILDREN by proxy

Neil.

heh

been there

done that

[Arm]

Originally posted by Neil__@2 August 2003 - 16:08
"Boot Camps" are illegal in the United Kingdom

Good for England. Now if only they were illegal in America that would be great.

[j2k4]

Boot camps?

Like everything else, some work, some don't.

There are, regardless of the naysayers, instances in which an emotional/mental/developmental "reset" button needs to be pushed; boot camps are a manifestation of this need.

There has been a rash of instances in which results have been very much less than satisfactory, and obviously these situations need to be policed better, but it must be noted these don't constitute "all" boot camps; not even close (don't ask me for numbers, I'm confident I know what I'm talking about, so I frankly don't care what the naysayers think)-suffice it to say, you can count on hearing about the negatives, and just as surely you won't be regaled with the success stories, as they lack that certain "newsworthiness" we have been conditioned to look for.

As for anyone choosing off Balaam on this subject, please do him (and the rest of us) a favor and go fuck yourselves.

Some of us know how to carry on without getting carried away, and your name does not appear on our roster, so dump the personal stuff.

'nuff said.

[lynx]

Often, those who end up at 'boot camps' are nothing better than vicious bullying thugs, or at least heading in that direction. 'Normal' methods of rectifying their behaviour have failed, and something needs to be done to make them realise how unpleasant their behaviour is.
They often think that nothing too unpleasant is going to happen to them no matter how badly they behave, and something has to be done to change this belief.

J2 rightly points out that correct running of these establishments is not going to attract the attention of the media, while the few errant places are brought to full attention. It is right that the bad ones are exposed, but indiscriminate reporting often gives the impression that the whole system is 'rotten to the core'.

Of course there are some bad people working in these places, they are part of society and there are bad people in society, screening probably reduces the number of undesirables but some determined people will always slip the net. This doesn't mean we should get rid of the good ones too. The phrase 'throwing baby out with the bath water' springs to mind.

[j2k4]

I would favor the use of a reasonably well-compensated but very low-profile "ombudsman/observer" in every camp; but we're talking exceptional people here; hard to find.

Some of the low-ball financial aspects of these camps are dead-giveaways as to their ends, also, and this fact is ignored in many cases.

[MagicNakor]

A commissar? Why, j2, I never would've thought.