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Thread: Land Of The Free? Imprisonment Without Trial

  1. #1
    echidna's Avatar Poster
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    I'd really like to know the thoughts of some americans on this issue,
    i had believed that the USA prided itself on the superiority of it's legal system, there are enough television programs exported from the USA about american courts, lawyers and police. are they fictions about fictions
    what do americans think about the treatment of the prisoners at guantanamo? why do you think that the USA can do this? why was the US citizen afforded special treatment compared to the other prisoners? why have no charges been laid? why is legal advise being with-held? why are these people prevented from speaking to their families?
    Originally posted by http://sydney.indymedia.org/
    Australian David Hicks has been imprisoned in the Guantanamo Gulag for nearly two years. David was accused by the US military of helping the Taliban during the Afghanistan war.

    His father Terry Hicks recently went to the US to plead for David to be given some kind of civil trial like John Walker Lindh had. According to Terry, David was trying to escape Afghanistan at the time of his arrest, and he is not a member of the Taliban. Terry was recently on the Democracy Now TV show on FSTV in New York.

    David has been denied the basic human right of a fair trial, and is being treated much like prisoners were in the old Soviet system, and prisoners in Chile during the Pinochet dictatorship. He has been interrogated regularly, and he is not allowed any phone calls from his family, or his attorney.

    The Center For Constitutional Rights, and Amnesty International have taken up his case (click on the AI url to email the US State Department). According to CCR President Michael Raftner, after 19 months Hicks still has no attorney, no access to his family and no charges against him,.... CCR believes that if the US government has evidence that Hicks participated in terrorist activities, they should charge him in a regularly constituted court with other foreign nationals.

    It is clear to all of us involved in this case, that the prosecution of David Hicks is more of a political prosecution than a criminal one.

    It remains to be seen what happens to David Hicks. What is known is that this Australian citizen could face the death penalty for simply being in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Hopefully, David will be able to have his attorneys present his case, so that his side of this shameful violation of human rights will at least be known to the public prior to his sentencing, or possible execution.
    further info about David Hicks @ http://www.fairgofordavid.org/

    if these people have committed crimes why are they not charged and tried? without due process isn't this just state kidnapping?
    i cannot see how they are not P.O.Ws, and as such the USA is flaunting the geneva convention
    i am sure that the USA wouldn't tolerate US citizens being treated in a similar manner
    it seems the rest of us are sub-human, for not being american, and as such we can be treated however americans want

    so americans, do you want this? why? and why is it OK?

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #2
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    It all boils down to the fact that they are war criminals, not domestic criminals. Also, the paradigm of a superpower is that we do every thing right, just, and good, but when something which people don't like happens, it counts doubly against us.

    In Iraq after we won the war we were expected to get in, set up/repair a ton of infastructure, give the Iraqis a free government, and give the oil back to them all in a matter of weeks. The US, as the great superpower, was expected to do all of that within weeks. When that unrealistic expectation wasn't fulfilled in expedience, people started getting frustrated.

    The point im trying to make is when something "bad", like the Guantanamo Bay fiasco, happens to a "good" nation, people point fingers and subconciously say "HA! They think they're so good and just and powerful!" Even a miracle needs a hand, and nobody's perfect.

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #3
    DarkBlizzard's Avatar Poster
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    Originally posted by echidna+7 August 2003 - 02:09--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (echidna @ 7 August 2003 - 02:09)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I&#39;d really like to know the thoughts of some americans on this issue,
    i had believed that the USA prided itself on the superiority of it&#39;s legal system, there are enough television programs exported from the USA about american courts, lawyers and police. are they fictions about fictions
    what do americans think about the treatment of the prisoners at guantanamo? why do you think that the USA can do this? why was the US citizen afforded special treatment compared to the other prisoners? why have no charges been laid? why is legal advise being with-held? why are these people prevented from speaking to their families?
    <!--QuoteBegin-http://sydney.indymedia.org/

    Australian David Hicks has been imprisoned in the Guantanamo Gulag for nearly two years. David was accused by the US military of helping the Taliban during the Afghanistan war.

    His father Terry Hicks recently went to the US to plead for David to be given some kind of civil trial like John Walker Lindh had. According to Terry, David was trying to escape Afghanistan at the time of his arrest, and he is not a member of the Taliban. Terry was recently on the Democracy Now TV show on FSTV in New York.

    David has been denied the basic human right of a fair trial, and is being treated much like prisoners were in the old Soviet system, and prisoners in Chile during the Pinochet dictatorship. He has been interrogated regularly, and he is not allowed any phone calls from his family, or his attorney.

    The Center For Constitutional Rights, and Amnesty International have taken up his case (click on the AI url to email the US State Department). According to CCR President Michael Raftner, after 19 months Hicks still has no attorney, no access to his family and no charges against him,.... CCR believes that if the US government has evidence that Hicks participated in terrorist activities, they should charge him in a regularly constituted court with other foreign nationals.

    It is clear to all of us involved in this case, that the prosecution of David Hicks is more of a political prosecution than a criminal one.

    It remains to be seen what happens to David Hicks. What is known is that this Australian citizen could face the death penalty for simply being in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Hopefully, David will be able to have his attorneys present his case, so that his side of this shameful violation of human rights will at least be known to the public prior to his sentencing, or possible execution.
    further info about David Hicks @ http://www.fairgofordavid.org/

    if these people have committed crimes why are they not charged and tried? without due process isn&#39;t this just state kidnapping?
    i cannot see how they are not P.O.Ws, and as such the USA is flaunting the geneva convention
    i am sure that the USA wouldn&#39;t tolerate US citizens being treated in a similar manner
    it seems the rest of us are sub-human, for not being american, and as such we can be treated however americans want

    so americans, do you want this? why? and why is it OK? [/b][/quote]
    dude i dont care how they treat them...they are terrorists.....they can all die....And....

    If you not American then its not ur problem is bug off.

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #4
    Originally posted by SodiumChloride@7 August 2003 - 08:31
    It all boils down to the fact that they are war criminals, not domestic criminals.
    suspected war criminals, i think you mean



    at the end of the day, the treatment is hugely unfair and against human rights
    <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>BLAH</span>

    <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Wayne Rooney - A thug and a thief</span>

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #5
    Originally posted by DarkBlizzard@7 August 2003 - 08:36
    dude i dont care how they treat them...they are terrorists.....they can all die....And....

    If you not American then its not ur problem is bug off.
    very compassionate there...

    also, how the fuck can you say that international terrorism is only america&#39;s problem?
    are you intentionally stupid?
    <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>BLAH</span>

    <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Wayne Rooney - A thug and a thief</span>

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #6
    echidna's Avatar Poster
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    SodiumChloride & DarkBlizzard you&#39;re making the nazi&#39;s sound reasonable and humane - if you want to foster more anti-american attitudes, you&#39;re going the right way.

    you claim that these people are terrorists yet there is no evidence of this
    can you substantiate any of your accusations? [since your government won&#39;t i doubt that you can]

    you seem comfortable that in cases of the US governments choosing the accused is guilty until proven Innocent

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #7
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    Originally posted by echidna@7 August 2003 - 01:05
    SodiumChloride & DarkBlizzard you&#39;re making the nazi&#39;s sound reasonable and humane
    Except for the fact that the nazis killed 6 million jews and the americans imprisoned a few hundred suspected terrorists - they just happen to be arabs because Afghanistan is where the war was fought

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #8
    Originally posted by SodiumChloride@7 August 2003 - 09:37
    Except for the fact that the nazis killed 6 million jews and the americans imprisoned a few hundred suspected terrorists - they just happen to be arabs because Afghanistan is where the war was fought
    seriously, shut up

    it&#39;s not the number of people who&#39;s rights are breached, it&#39;s the fact that it happens in the first place...

    edit: i&#39;m not in any way saying that the american&#39;s are as bad as hitler was, i&#39;m only saying that the actions of each of them break human rights
    <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>BLAH</span>

    <span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>Wayne Rooney - A thug and a thief</span>

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #9
    Barbarossa's Avatar mostly harmless
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    Originally posted by 3rd gen noob+7 August 2003 - 07:40--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (3rd gen noob @ 7 August 2003 - 07:40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-SodiumChloride@7 August 2003 - 08:31
    It all boils down to the fact that they are war criminals, not domestic criminals.
    suspected war criminals, i think you mean



    at the end of the day, the treatment is hugely unfair and against human rights [/b][/quote]
    Isn&#39;t the problem that the US doesn&#39;t class them as war criminals, because they were not fighting on behalf of a sovereign state, in which case they are classed as nothing, which is why they can get away with not following the Geneva Convention in their treatment?

    Perhaps someone can clarify their status for me, &#39;cos I&#39;m confused.

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #10
    Rat Faced's Avatar Broken
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    Some people had a grudge against some people and said "That person works with the Taliban"...so they get arrested.


    As they werent caught fighting anyone, they arent POWs.


    The analogy that comes to mind is rather old...

    That old womans a witch...

    ...Does she sink or float.

    An It Harm None, Do What You Will

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