Land Of The Free? Imprisonment Without Trial

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You used the Nazi thing[/b]

Just the truth. How offensive eh?

Are you denying the Israelis are doing this?
Are you denying the Nazis used similar tactics?
What is your factual objection to the comparison?

Please I&#39;d like to know.

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
uber-antiAmerican government hardline[/quote]

hehe, only a matter of time eh? Funny how I was talking about the Israeli Gvts actions though... You mentioned something about cheap shots?

Next time just say AA it will save you and your ilk typing the same word 300 times a day. We&#39;ll know what you mean.

[clocker]

EBP,

As i have stated before I find your comparison of Israel&#39;s situation to that of the UK and Spain to be faulty and misleading.

Neither country is surrounded by neighbors who&#39;s avowed intention is to drive them into the sea.
Thus, they enjoy the luxury of a more measured response.

You enjoy portraying me as heartlessly bloodthirsty, yet I don&#39;t really see where this perception comes from.

I would be pleased if a solution could be reached, yet I despair of that ever occuring. Both sides of that conflict, yea, all the states of the Middle East have inextricably tied politics and religion together and I think that&#39;s a fatally volitile mixture.

All of those states are either out and out theocracies (Iran), or monarchies, thinly overlaid on theocracies and paying an increasingly heavy toll to survive (Saudi Arabia).

The West ( and perhaps America in particular) has a difficult time understanding such a set-up. Being far more liberal about personal freedoms (including religion) and not especially inclined to mix politics and religion, we have tip toed around how to best deal with these countries.

After all, we don&#39;t want to appear to be attacking the Muslim religion, just the extremists who have "hijacked the religion for their own agenda".



We Americans would be satisfied with a political solution, but I suspect that Middle Easterners (including Israel) would not. To them, politics IS religion and vice versa.

Hence our difficulty.

[hobbes]

Do we not support Israel, we could just give it too them. But your statement on terrorism has broader implications, obviously. Your comment that the US supposrts Israel and therefore supports killing innocent Palestians is hardly pro American government.


In regard to Nazi comparisons, the burden of proof is on the accuser, unless you practice "guilty until proven innocent".

Please compare and contrast. A single commonality does not a marraige make. If you can convincingly portray Israel as equivalent to the Nazi&#39;s, I am sure we will add them to our list of terrorists.


I think J2 may have been right when he made up the word "contrarian". I simply can&#39;t believe you believe what you are saying. You just like fencing, for fencings&#39; sake.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by clocker+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Thus, they enjoy the luxury of a more measured response.
[/b]

Thus purposefully killing women and children is acceptable.

No.

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we have tip toed around how to best deal with these countries.[/quote]

For decades our countries have provided billions of dollars of military aid to Israel knowing it is being (ab)used to kill women and children.

&#39;We&#39; are then shocked and surprised when the favour is returned.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If you can convincingly portray Israel as equivalent to the Nazi&#39;s, I am sure we will add them to our list of terrorists.
[/b]

I did not say they were equivalent. I pointed out that they are using similar tactics.

Here is the proof you require.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_ea...ast/3146737.stm

Originally posted by hobbes@
I simply can&#39;t believe you believe what you are saying

That Israel has been carrying out atrocities for decades with support from the West? If it werent for all the evidence I would find it hard to believe as well.

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
I think J2 may have been right when he made up the word "contrarian". [/quote]

Contrarian means to go against conventional wisdom. It does not mean one is wrong. Conventional wisdom used to involve the Earth being flat.

I cant believe the resistance one encounters when arguing such a simple point. i.e we shouldnt be supporting atrocities against civilians. Its truly amazing.

[clocker]

Originally posted by evilbagpuss+10 September 2003 - 20:40--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (evilbagpuss @ 10 September 2003 - 20:40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-clocker
Thus, they enjoy the luxury of a more measured response.

Thus purposefully killing women and children is acceptable.

No.

[/b][/quote]
To my knowledge Israel has never purposely targeted just women and children. There has always been a military component to their raids.

Which is more than can be said of the Palestinians.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by clocker
To my knowledge Israel has never purposely targeted just women and children. There has always been a military component to their raids.

Oh thats OK then. If theres one Hamas leader in a 10 storey block of flats full of innocent civilians then it is OK to drop a bomb on that building??? Please...

I am still amazed at the resistance I encounter when arguing this point.

[clocker]

You know what EBP?

We are just wasting pixels here.

Your posts have not moved me one nanometer towards your position and I&#39;m sure that the reverse is true also.

We&#39;ll meet in another thread, I&#39;m sure.

Now I&#39;m off to reread Biggles&#39;s post in the child molester thread- to my mind, the best post anywhere on the forum of the past few days.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by clocker
Your posts have not moved me one nanometer towards your position and I&#39;m sure that the reverse is true also.

Yup, I didnt think you&#39;d be able to justify dropping a bomb on an apartment block full of innocent civilians in order to kill one man.

As for you "not being moved one nanometer" this is why I suspect you dont value a Palestinians life very highly, regardless of your PC protests.

How can any rational human not be disgusted or moved by such indiscriminate killing?

[hobbes]

If you can convincingly portray Israel as equivalent to the Nazi&#39;s, I am sure we will add them to our list of terrorists.


I did not say they were equivalent. I pointed out that they are using similar tactics.

Here is the proof you require.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_ea...ast/3146737.stm

Well I am sure the little tyke grew up in a vacuum, all his other family members were probably against his action. Or do vices cluster?

A bulldozer to the house and you win the Nazi seal of approval, and that is what you are trying to do right. Place the old Nazi label on Israel through some superficial analogy.

If you simply wanted to point out a comparison, why don&#39;t you also point to their use of pants. I mean this is almost worthy of an EBaum picture it is so trivial.

I have admitted that Israel has committed atrocities, most I have heard about have been retaliations (in response to a suicide bombing during a ceasefire) I couch it in my experience, this means that you can enlighten me otherwise- I am willing to listen). I was just wondering if Palestine has any culpability in this affair?

I think the resistance you get is not that you are wrong, but rather from your tendancy in afixing blame to one side over the other and not conceding that the street does go both ways.