Land Of The Free? Imprisonment Without Trial

[hobbes]

That was not intented.

[evilbagpuss]

Originally posted by hobbes
Well I am sure the little tyke grew up in a vacuum, all his other family members were probably against his action. Or do vices cluster?

Ah now were getting somewhere closer to your not so palatable beliefs

Do we kill a murderers family? Do we bulldoze the house of a pedophile? Are your parents automatically responsible for your actions?

Face it, its disgusting, and it IS a Nazi style tactic. Regardless of how distasteful you find the comparison, its a very accurate one.

But since you asked...

The mother of Khamis Jarwan demanded retribution against the militants who sent her son to die.

She told the Associated Press news agency: "I'll kill whoever dispatched my son."

She'll have to get round to that after shes found a new place to live I guess.

Oh and not that it matters post-Iraq but...

Amnesty International told BBC News Online the demolitions were effectively a breach of the Geneva Conventions.

"This incident is yet a further instance of quite unlawful collective punishments practised systematically by the Israeli authorities for over a year," said an Amnesty spokesman.

Now on to the really good stuff

I have admitted that Israel has committed atrocities, most I have heard about have been retaliations. (I couch it in my experience, this means that you can enlighten me otherwise- I am willing to listen). I was just wondering if Palestine has any culpability in this affair?

I think the resistance you get is not that you are wrong, but rather from your tendancy in afixing blame to one side over the other and not conceding that the street does go both ways.

Retaliation? Chicken and egg anyone?

Does one atrocity make another acceptable? Should we have put the Germans into concentration camps and said "well they did it too!"???

Moving onto an even more obvious point... suicide bombings are carried out by terrorists, Israeli atrocities are carried out by the armed forces of a democracy.

If you cannot see why that makes a huge difference.. there really is no point continuing this debate.

I will say this though. Our Gvts dont donate billions of $$'s to support atrocities carried out by Palestinian terrorists so why is it acceptable for us to do this in support of Israeli atrocities?

Double standards and hypocrisy. Plain and simple.

edit: typo

[hobbes]

I'm off to argue with Fugley about the Ford Focus.

Goodnight.

[Billy_Dean]

Fuck these time zones.

I did not mean to imply the U.S. actually cared about other countries; as we all know, this is simply not true.

Thank you for that j2k4, we seem to be finally getting the truth from you.

As I said, because of time zones I am not able to be here to defend myself, so I have to read back many pages.

Billy-

Anyone who would deign to refer to me as "arsehole" wouldn't have been engaged in activity likely to be of any benefit to me.

If indeed you were associated in any way with a government agency I'm positive it would have not been in the field of intelligence-one must have some to get some (so to speak).

It doesn't take a whole lot of intelligence to see right through idiots like you. My background was neither military, nor intelligence, although I worked with both, try again!

For the record, I am also a white, aetheist British male.

As for the references to nazis, the comparisons are obvious, maybe we should start a whole new thread. Forcing villagers to dig mass graves, lining them up and shooting them, dead bodies piled upon live ones and buried together. Let's not forget 1948 in this argument. Let's not forget the jewish terrorist organisations and the attrocities committed in their bid to set up a jewish state in a muslim country. And don't tell me the firing of missiles into apartment blocks is not meant to instil terror into a civilian population!

There is a solution to the Israeli Palenstinian crisis, Israel must get out of the occupied territories. Don't tell me it wouldn't work, do it, then tell me!

To my knowledge Israel has never purposely targeted just women and children. There has always been a military component to their raids.

To my knowledge ...

I re-quoted that part for you Clocker...

[j2k4]

Boy, Billy, between you, EBP, and Lynx, you haven't read a thing.

Example:

Lynx goes off, yipping about my having mentioned civilian trials, then swearing up and down that I said that I did not mention them, then quoting me doing so, emphasizing and colorizing his "proof".

The fact is, I had mentioned civilian trials many times; however I had not denied that.

What I had denied was mentioning military tribunals.

He failed to read the post.

The same goes for you and EBP.

EBP goes on and on about an Israeli bomb/missile going off in the midst of a block of "innocent" Palestinians, and demands an explanation/justification.

I can't offer one, just as he cannot offer a similar justification for homocide bombers doing their gigs on buses; I haven't yet heard of any damage done to the Israeli military through the use of this tactic.

I, however, have never said I don't regret the harm done to innocent Palestinians.

He wishes, as most Palestinians do, that the Israelis were eliminated, genocide-style, and that the U.S. step aside so that this could be accomplished.


(Quote/evilbagpuss)

The Palestinian extremists would wipe out the Jews if the US dropped its support...(Unquote)

He is contrarian.

He is also wrong-case closed.

You yourself try to presume a level of insider knowledge due to your mysterious and ghostly participation in myriad covert operations which had the effect of saving all mankind.

What a triumvirate of hyper-socialist scaremongers you are.


Also-

For your edification:

I am well aware of our past actions regarding the overthrow of foreign leaders we deemed dangerous, or undesirable-so what?

We interject ourselves where we see fit-so what?

We aren't overly concerned with the status of a bunch of Taliban/Al Qaeda terrorists at Guantanamo Bay, and we don't care who is questioning our handling of the situation there.

As to accusations of "double-standards", again; SO WHAT?

If you sincerely don't like it, get off your duffs, put away your keyboards, and go join the fray-I won't miss you.

This concludes my participation in this thread.

Feel free to blather on as you see fit.

[Billy_Dean]

I am well aware of our past actions regarding the overthrow of foreign leaders we deemed dangerous, or undesirable-so what?

We interject ourselves where we see fit-so what?

We aren't overly concerned with the status of a bunch of Taliban/Al Qaeda terrorists at Guantanamo Bay, and we don't care who is questioning our handling of the situation there.

As to accusations of "double-standards", again; SO WHAT?

If only you'd said that in the first place, you could have saved us the trouble of pointing it out to you. The fact is, you DON'T care, and neither does your government, you are a law unto yourselves, and the rest of the world hates you for it.

As to what I have or haven't done, I'd love to talk about it, the fact is, I can't. So there you are.

For your information, I am also appalled by suicide bombers, although I can see it as an act of a desperate people, acheing for what other people take for granted. I do NOT want to see the destruction of Israel. I want to see a Palestinian state, within the 1967 borders. I want jewish settlers out of the 46% of the occupied territories they have stolen. I WANT, more than anything else, peace, not just in Palestine, but the whole of the Middle East. The key to this is Israel, and the key to Israel is the United States. The vicious circle again! I want the overthrow of the Saudi regime, I want democracy and freedom for all. Again, the key to this is the United States.

This problem must be addressed through the UN. I don't like the UN setup, any more than your government does, but it's the best we have. We need to reform it, not abandon it.

Had the US and partners gone into Iraq to "kick this arsehole out", I would have been the first to congratulate them. but, in my opinion, doing the right thing, for the wrong reason, is still wrong. And, militarily, this was a cock-up, an invading armed force, and a liberating armed force, are two different cookies.

I still think we can sort all this out, but we have to do it together. The 280 pound gorrilla has to listen!

[evilbagpuss]

*sigh*

Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>EBP goes on and on about an Israeli bomb/missile going off in the midst of a block of "innocent" Palestinians, and demands an explanation/justification.[/b]

Oh I just love the quote marks around innocent. Just say what you mean you fascist. None of them are innocent so they all deserve to die, women and children first.

Imagine if I had put quote marks around innocent Israelis? For some amazing reason which I cannot fathom... that&#39;d be different.

Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>He wishes, as most Palestinians do, that the Israelis were eliminated, genocide-style, and that the U.S. step aside so that this could be accomplished[/b]

lol&#33;&#33;&#33; I&#39;ve never stated that I wanted that to happen. I merely stated that it would happen if the US dropped its support. I was pointing out that the US could do a lot more to influence Israel because of this leverage it has.

Quoting me out of context eh j2k4? Naughty.. but again.. very encouraging.

Basically you&#39;ve been watching Fox far too much. Its melted your brain to the point where you now support ethnic cleansing but dont even realise it. "Most Palestinians" want to destroy Israel.. any proof? Or just what you&#39;ve heard from Fox?

You get more and more desperate as time goes on. Your mask is slipping and that just encourages me to keep on going until you show yourself to be the true Nazi you are

Originally posted by j2k4

I can&#39;t offer one, just as he cannot offer a similar justification for homocide bombers doing their gigs on buses;

(hehe spelling mistake from you of all people? The one who corrects us all on our written English? You must be going mad. Again very encouraging. Moving on...)

OK j2k4 concentrate theres an important distinction arising here.

Originally posted by EBP

Moving onto an even more obvious point... suicide bombings are carried out by terrorists, Israeli atrocities are carried out by the armed forces of a democracy.

If you cannot see why that makes a huge difference.. there really is no point continuing this debate.

Just remember I am NOT the one trying to justify atrocities here. Therefore I dont need to justify suicide bombings because I am NOT defending them. Like I said concentrate.

Originally posted by j2k4

He is contrarian

<!--QuoteBegin-EBP@
Contrarian means to go against conventional wisdom. It does not mean one is wrong. Conventional wisdom used to involve the Earth being flat.[/quote]

You mentioned something about not reading the posts?

<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4
As to accusations of "double-standards", again; SO WHAT?[/quote]

YES&#33;&#33; AT last&#33;&#33;&#33; He blows his top and shows us that all this pseudo intellectual reasoning is a cover&#33; I knew we&#39;d get the truth out of you one day j2k4&#33;

Your a fascist imperialist who supports atrocities against &#39;innocent&#39; Palestinians and believes that might is right and that International Law is a joke.

I will be sure to plunder this thread for inspiration when you calm down and attempt to get on your high horse about other issues. Hehe, you&#39;ll never have a leg to stand on again

I have all your stuff at my fingertips.

PS

Remember folks all this "vengeance and furious anger" has been caused by me arguing that Israel shouldnt regularly kill innocent people on purpose. Such is the fucked up world we live in that this point of view is now highly contraversial.

Remember people, like j2k4 said, theres no such thing as an innocent Palestinian. So lets put em to death. Every last one of them. Anyone disagreeing with this policy.. well... you&#39;ve seen what kind of opposition you face now. Good luck.

[Billy_Dean]

Well done EB, your work in flushing this guy out has been impressive, I salute you&#33;

[ilw]

This is just a big flame war now. Wouldn&#39;t it make more sense to start a new thread which actually discusses the problems being faced and discusses ideas of what could/should be done about Israel/Palestine and maybe the broader Middle East problems, I no longer feel like i&#39;m learning anything from this one.
I&#39;ll start a thread when i get home from work if no one else wants to make one now.

[evilbagpuss]

@ilw

We&#39;re very much on topic and.. I feel like I have learnt alot about the attitudes that exist about Israel/Palestine. You used to have to read between the lines but.. one good thing about a heated debate is that people tend to drop their pretence of being fair and reasonable.

Compare and contrast j2k4&#39;s most recent post with his earlier ones on the subject. We&#39;re definitely exposing some disturbing stuff here.