Page 7 of 29 FirstFirst ... 4567891017 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 70 of 289

Thread: Land Of The Free? Imprisonment Without Trial

  1. #61
    Rat Faced's Avatar Broken
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Newcasil
    Age
    58
    Posts
    8,804
    Then lets turn devils advocate and examine the "Miliary Tribunals" and their legality, and whether they are even getting "Military Tribunals" in the sense you are putting forward....



    Current situation is.....

    Copied/Pasted below for those that dont fancy looking themselves:

    Foreign Terrorist Military Tribunal Authorization Act of 2001


    On December 12, 2001, Congresswoman Jane Harman (D-CA) introduced H.R. 3468, the Foreign Terrorist Military Tribunal Authorization Act of 2001 (Act), which would authorize the president to convene military tribunals for trial outside the United States of persons who are neither U.S. citizens nor lawful resident aliens, and who are apprehended in connection with the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks against the United States. The Act, currently pending in House of Representatives committees, would serve to codify the authority assumed by President George W. Bush in his Executive Order of November 13, 2001. The Executive Order, Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War Against Terrorism (Executive Order), authorizes the trial of suspected terrorists by military commissions. The Act provides that military tribunals would be convened only outside the United States, and preserves broad executive authority to specify the location of the tribunals, the procedures to be employed, the suspects to be tried, and the offenses with which they will be charged. The Act requires that the president transmit to Congress and to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court a semi-annual report specifying such details, and further provides that the report be unclassified "to the extent possible." The Act also includes a sunset provision, terminating its authorization of military tribunals on December 31, 2005. Similar to President Bush's Executive Order, the Act pertains to individuals suspected of planning, authorizing, committing, or aiding the September 11 attacks, as well as those suspected of harboring any organization or individual that planned, authorized, committed, or aided the attacks. The Act expressly preserves the right to petition for habeas corpus, providing that "[n]othing in any military order, executive order, regulation, or other directive of the executive branch may limit the rights or privileges of any individual . . . relating to habeas corpus."

    The legitimacy of trying suspected terrorists by military tribunals has been debated fervently since President Bush's November decree. The Act, if passed, would partially rectify Bush's apparent attempt to deny those convicted by a military tribunal the privilege "to seek any remedy or maintain any proceeding . . . in any court of the United States," by expressly prohibiting the executive branch from limiting the constitutional writ of habeas corpus. Nevertheless, in limiting post-conviction remedies to habeas corpus, the Act passively sustains the Executive Order's denial of the right to appeal a conviction by a military tribunal to an Article III court. The Act is also silent on a variety of other limitations embodied in the Executive Order concerning the procedural rights of suspected terrorists.

    The Executive Order defines suspected terrorists as those whom the president determines "there is reason to believe" are or were members of al Qaida; engaged in, aided or abetted, or conspired to commit international acts of terrorism; or knowingly harbored one or more individuals meeting such descriptions. The Act fails to define the standard of suspicion necessary to detain and try suspected terrorists in military tribunals, passively supporting the "presidential determination of a 'reason to believe'" standard, which the Executive Order articulates. Such a standard falls outside the realm of the more familiar "probable cause" and "reasonable suspicion" benchmarks, and therefore lacks a basis for comparative evaluation, rendering its reliability questionable.

    Additionally, although the Act requires that the president report to Congress on the procedures used in any military tribunal convened, it is silent on the broad procedural guidelines articulated in Bush's Executive Order. Specifically, the Executive Order embraces all evidence "of probative value to a reasonable person," including hearsay and evidence obtained in violation of the Fourth, Fifth, and Sixth Amendments to the Constitution; it provides for a determination of guilt by a two-thirds vote, as opposed to the unanimous verdict required in U.S. jury trials; and it also provides for a two-thirds vote for sentencing, including capital sentences. Even military court martial proceedings require a three-fourths vote for a life sentence and a unanimous vote to impose the death penalty.

    The Act would passively sustain guidelines provided in President Bush's Executive Order for trying suspected terrorists in military tribunals although they fail to meet international standards for criminal prosecutions. For example, Article 9 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR), which the U.S. ratified in 1992, provides that "[n]o one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention." Similarly, it asserts, "[n]o one shall be deprived of his liberty except . . . in accordance with such procedures as are established by law." The arrest and detention of individuals on the basis of President Bush's personal determination that there is "reason to believe" they are terrorists; that they planned, authorized, committed, or aided the September 11 attacks; or that they harbored an organization or individual that so planned, authorized, committed, or aided, may well be arbitrary. Moreover, in diverging substantially from the procedures established under U.S. federal and constitutional law, and even from those established under U.S. military law for courts martial, the procedures set forth in Bush's Executive Order violate the ICCPR.

    In defense of military tribunals, President Bush has asserted that those who would be tried in such courts are "unlawful combatants who seek to destroy our country and our way of life." Indeed, unlawful combatants, in contrast to prisoners of war, lack due process protections under the Geneva Conventions, which govern the laws of war. International treaties, such as the ICCPR, however, are not specific to certain persons, but rather protect the fundamental human rights of all persons. Moreover, the classification of detainees as unlawful combatants, and not prisoners of war, is a legal determination governed by the 1977 Protocol Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts (Protocol 1). In particular, Article 45 of Protocol 1 articulates a presumption that a person who partakes in hostilities and falls into an adverse party's power is a prisoner of war, and therefore protected by the Third Geneva Convention "if he claims the status of prisoner of war, or if he appears to be entitled to such status, or if the Party on which he depends claims such status on his behalf . . . ." Additionally, Protocol 1 provides that where "any doubt arise[s] as to whether any such person is entitled to the status of prisoner of war, he shall continue to have such status, and therefore, to be protected by the Third [Geneva] Convention and this Protocol until such time as his status has been determined by a competent tribunal (emphasis added)." Thus, President Bush's ad hoc decision that individuals, whose guilt he determines should be adjudicated by a military commission, are unlawful combatants is improper. An executive determination that detainees are unlawful combatants, rather than prisoners of war, may in some instances violate the guarantee of a judicial determination of such status codified in Protocol 1, and in graver instances, this executive determination could violate humanitarian protections guaranteed to prisoners of war by the Geneva Conventions. Importantly, trial by a military commission of persons wrongfully denied prisoner of war status would violate Article 106 of the Third Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, 12 August 1949, which provides that all prisoners of war have the right of appeal or petition from any sentence, in the same manner as members of the armed forces of the detaining power.

    Prosecuting and punishing perpetrators of the September 11 attacks on the United States is undoubtedly an important and formidable task. Sacrificing fundamental due process guarantees recognized under federal and international law, however, carries heavy consequences. Congressional authorization of military tribunals would constitute a great hypocrisy in light of U.S. criticism of military tribunals throughout the world, particularly those in Peru, where the U.S. Department of State criticized a military trial of an American accused of terrorism, demanding that the trial be held "in open civilian court with full rights of legal defense, in accordance with international judicial norms." In light of these potential legal and political consequences, it is critical that Congress take additional steps to regulate the procedures employed in military tribunals, and ensure that the U.S. effort to protect itself from terrorism does not result in seriously undermining U.S. credibility throughout the world.





    In essence then:

    They arent getting a "Military Tribunal" as in the case dictated by US Military Law... The Defendants have even less rights than those in a normal US Miliary Tribunal.

    They are Kangaroo Courts where hearsay is given the wait of evidence.

    In addition, the Executive Order specifically states that only members of Al Queda can be arrested and held this way....so why are the Taliban Soldiers being held? (about 75% of those held are Taliban...not Al Queda)


    In addition....despite all the spin from Washington re: "Unlawful Combatants", the Articles of the Geneva Convention still cover them....and the Rights they have fall far short of the rights of POWs.

    In conclusion....Hypocracy again from the US Administration....look at the Demands of the US when it was a US citizen being charged with Terrorism in Peru. In that case it they said it could NOT be by Miliary Tribunal, but had to be in open Civil Court.

    Well, whats Good for the Goose is Good for the Gander..... If US citizens should have open civil trials for Terrorism, then so should the citizens of every other country on earth.

    An It Harm None, Do What You Will

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #62
    Rat Faced's Avatar Broken
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Newcasil
    Age
    58
    Posts
    8,804
    RF, gets off his soapbox and wanders off......

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #63
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oh, please...
    Posts
    15,893
    Whatever, Rat.

    I haven't mentioned military tribunals anywhere, here.

    I'm done with this thread, I think.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #64
    lynx's Avatar .
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Yorkshire, England
    Posts
    9,759
    Originally posted by j2k4@21 August 2003 - 04:50
    Lynx-

    I do remember the topic-at the outset, you and all the others demanded a civilian solution for what the U.S. has chosen to treat as a military problem-I responded that civilian detention and military detention are not the same; military detention is much more arbitrary, and the U.S. has deemed this a necessity.

    There it is-simple.

    But you (and others) choose to drag the thread through all the permutations of your distaste for the general situation, and here we are.

    I spent my two cents pages ago; we have regressed to this point due to your harping on the point of timely and effective legal representation. I answered the U.S. doesn't feel they are deserving of same, and you don't like it-so?

    If you want a question answered, ask one.

    And please, no more lectures on how I'm avoiding the "issue"; package it up neatly and I will address it.
    Go back and read this thread again. Apart from a quote by echidna (and I assume you would not want him to alter a quote simply because it contains a word which offends you) the only person to mention civilian trials is you.

    And for some strange reason, you think that because the detainees are subject to military trial/tribunal, they can simply langour in jail until someone decides that they might have such a trial.

    RF has adequately shown that the US does not have right to deny them legal representation, which has been the point of our argument all along.

    You want a question ? Then I will repeat the question which i have asked about half a dozen times already. I want this question answered.
    Why is the US administration unwilling to hold the detainees in a place where they would be subject to US law ?

    If you can't or won't answer it then simply say so.

    Edit: typo
    .
    Political correctness is based on the principle that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #65
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oh, please...
    Posts
    15,893
    QUOTE (j2k4 @ 21 August 2003 - 04:50)
    Lynx-

    I do remember the topic-at the outset, you and all the others demanded a civilian solution for what the U.S. has chosen to treat as a military problem-I responded that civilian detention and military detention are not the same; military detention is much more arbitrary, and the U.S. has deemed this a necessity.

    There it is-simple.

    But you (and others) choose to drag the thread through all the permutations of your distaste for the general situation, and here we are.

    I spent my two cents pages ago; we have regressed to this point due to your harping on the point of timely and effective legal representation. I answered the U.S. doesn't feel they are deserving of same, and you don't like it-so?

    If you want a question answered, ask one.

    And please, no more lectures on how I'm avoiding the "issue"; package it up neatly and I will address it.


    Go back and read this thread again. Apart from a quote by echidna (and I assume you would not want him to alter a quote simply because it contains a word which offends you) the only person to mention civilian trials is you.

    YOU go back and re-read the thread, Lynx-I didn't deny mentioning civilian proceedings; I DID deny mentioning military tribunals.

    And for some strange reason, you think that because the detainees are subject to military trial/tribunal, they can simply langour in jail until someone decides that they might have such a trial.

    That the military is administering the detention should be sufficient to indicate this is the case; with your overweening familiarity as to the nature and methodology of U.S. military procedure, I would have assumed you knew this.

    As you do not, or have chosen to overlook it, here it is, in plain English:

    The U.S. military, advised by Mr. Rumsfeld, feels perfectly able and comfortable inflicting languor (note the CORRECT spelling of the word) on whomever it chooses to detain, for whatever reasons, until such time it deems appropriate to try them in whatever venue it deems correct.

    Like it or not, there you have it.



    RF has adequately shown that the US does not have right to deny them legal representation, which has been the point of our argument all along.

    YOU try telling the 800-pound gorilla it doesn't have the right-and while you're doing that, show us where, in whatever internationally accepted document you choose, where it says terrorists have a right to do what they do. Remember what I said about "exceptional circumstances"? We are accessing the same fiat as the terrorists.

    You want a question ? Then I will repeat the question which i have asked about half a dozen times already. I want this question answered.
    Why is the US administration unwilling to hold the detainees in a place where they would be subject to US law ?

    If you can't or won't answer it then simply say so.

    Gladly.

    The U.S. is holding the detainees at Guantanamo as it is the most easily defended of any of our available military facilities suitable for detention of "enemy combatants".

    Should any terrorist group, or any other mis-guided entity attempt an intervention on behalf of the "languorous" detainees, such an attack could be repelled with less chance of collateral damage to surrounding areas.

    We wouldn't want any such incident to occur on our mainland, or at Rammstein, etc., either.

    If you feel this indicates a lack of concern for the Cuban citizenry, consider that we feel it to be a "lesser-of-two-evils" scenario.

    As to detaining them at Gitmo as a means of depriving them of legal counsel, consider that, in any case, they would be held at a military facility, where access to counsel could be just as easily denied, so that is a non-issue.

    It should be clear by now that, in lieu of humane treatment (which the detainees ARE receiving) the U.S. government isn't overly concerned with the legal status of the detainees, okay?


    There-you've been enlightened as to policy as re: the detainees.

    Nobody is asking whether it suits you or not.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #66
    YOU try telling the 800-pound gorilla it doesn't have the right-and while you're doing that, show us where, in whatever internationally accepted document you choose, where it says terrorists have a right to do what they do.
    I think this highlights j2k4s mentality quite well..

    1. "Might is right"
    2. "I must muddy the waters of a debate with irrational ludicrous crap at all costs."

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #67
    lynx's Avatar .
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Yorkshire, England
    Posts
    9,759
    Originally posted by j2k4@21 August 2003 - 20:22
    It should be clear by now that, in lieu of humane treatment (which the detainees ARE receiving) the U.S. government isn't overly concerned with the legal status of the detainees, okay?
    I think that says it all - The US government doesn't care about international laws and conventions, except of course when it wishes to bash weaker nations whose regimes it disapproves of.

    And of course, since the US is unwilling to stand by agreed international conventions, this is an open invitation to terrorists to behave the same way - on the basis that if it is good enough for the US then surely it is good enough for the rest of the world.
    .
    Political correctness is based on the principle that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #68
    lynx's Avatar .
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Yorkshire, England
    Posts
    9,759
    Originally posted by j2k4+12 August 2003 - 15:46--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 &#064; 12 August 2003 - 15:46)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Military detention, or rather, detention in a military facility, is different than stateside, civilian detention.
    [/b]

    Originally posted by j2k4@14 August 2003 - 14:30
    I&#39;m a bit tired of being subject to the "sensibilities" of others on this subject, and other than due-process complaints (typical when comparing civilian/military detention), these people are not being starved or tortured, I don&#39;t think, but that is also a problem:
    Originally posted by j2k4@15 August 2003 - 14:02
    The only firm and consistent claim I hear or see is of imprisonment without trial, but I don&#39;t believe the right to a speedy trial extends to military detainees; that is a civilian right.
    Originally posted by j2k4@20 August 2003 - 11:14
    Why is a civilian trial deemed necessary?
    <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4
    @21 August 2003 - 04:50
    I do remember the topic-at the outset, you and all the others demanded a civilian solution for what the U.S. has chosen to treat as a military problem-I responded that civilian detention and military detention are not the same; military detention is much more arbitrary, and the U.S. has deemed this a necessity.
    [/quote]

    Need any more examples of how YOU have tried to make it appear that others are asking for civilian trials ? Please feel free to point out the instances where others have mentioned civilian trials or detention.
    The last quote shows especially how you are trying to present others as requiring a civilian solution. Quite obviously if the solution is not a civilian one then it must be a military one, so don&#39;t pretend you haven&#39;t suggested that it is. Unless of course you are suggesting that the detainees should just be released.
    .
    Political correctness is based on the principle that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #69
    Rat Faced's Avatar Broken
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Newcasil
    Age
    58
    Posts
    8,804
    Erm....I also pointed out that its gone BEYOND US military detention.

    A US soldier held in "Military Detention" has rights, and has much higher safegaurds against a possible Death Sentence.


    In addition, i also pointed out that in the case of US citizens being the terrorists (eg Peru)..........The USA demanded they had the right to a civilian trial, and not a miltary tribunal.


    ie. One rule for US citizens and another for everyone else.


    This has already been demonstrated in that the one US citizen that was at this camp has already been tried....in a civilian court. ie Hypocracy in front of the whole world.....again.

    An It Harm None, Do What You Will

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #70
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oh, please...
    Posts
    15,893
    Lynx-

    I really hate to have to insist, but:


    (Quote/j2k4)
    YOU go back and re-read the thread, Lynx-I didn&#39;t deny mentioning civilian proceedings; I DID deny mentioning military tribunals.



    I&#39;m not confused as to what I wrote; why you are, I cannot fathom.

    Neither do I know why you are pursuing this-continuing does not decrease your wrongness on this point.

    I must nonetheless apologize for my tardiness in returning post; I have not been properly situated as to proximity or timeliness during the board&#39;s intervening and infrequent spasms of usability.

    I hope I have posted in time to alleviate your apparent apoplexy.

    EBP-

    I should have known you would chime in; a free ride on Lynx&#39;s comfy coattails, with nothing to offer beyond the usual insult.

    But, as with friend Lynx, I must apologize to you for my delayed response.

    Poor EBP-

    Just look at you-your bib is soaked&#33;&#33;

    Rat-

    I&#39;m baffled; I am not usually left to conclude you haven&#39;t read my posts.

    Oh. well-

    As you say: CHEERS&#33;
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

Page 7 of 29 FirstFirst ... 4567891017 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •