Land Of The Free? Imprisonment Without Trial

[clocker]

IMO if a poofteenth of the money spent on this disgusting war were spent on protecting and educating the women of the Middle East we might begin to see real change. There just might be a chance for peace.

A noble sentiment AussieShiela.

How do you propose that it be implemented?

In Afghanistan, the Taliban seems to be specifically targeting human rights workers and schools.
In other Middle East countries, the government/religious leaders would have pretty strong objections to an invading army of schoolmarms, don't you think?

If the US intercedes with the stated intent of liberating the country from a dictator we are labeled "cultural imperialists" and "bullies"- how is your proposal any different?
They both presuppose that these countries would be better off were they to adopt a more Western approach to life.

[AussieSheila]

Yes, well, purely stupid probably was a bit much. But do you really think terrorists don't know who they are killing?

It's really late here and I've got an early start in the morning, will have to get back on the other stuff another time.

I really don't know how it could be implemented, I just think there must be a way to redirect some of this war money to doing something that would actually make a long term difference.

OK, going, too tired now. Everything I type is unrealistic. Catch ya!

I'm not talking about liberating a country from a dictator (although that would be nice) I'm talking about education from within, so they at least stand a chance of liberating themselves. There was a time when the Irish were not permitted to be educated, they taught their children at Hedge Schools. Surely if even some of the money and brain power put into implementing a war was somehow channelled into countries like Afghanistan there could be a real difference. I quite obviously don't have the brain power to come up with a solution on the spot, or probably ever, but isn't it worth working on? Taking into consideration? A long term alternative to blowing the crap outta each other?

[shelly]

IMO if a poofteenth of the money spent on this disgusting war were spent on protecting and educating the women of the Middle East we might begin to see real change.

As a German woman whos Govt. didn´t join this war,(Which I didn´t agree with) Iám wondering what world you live in ? WHO is going to protect and educate the women of the Middle East ? The men from the Middle East ? The Taliban ? The Middle Eastern Men? Come on join the real world these Men have abused women from the beginning of the Human race do you think a few dollars will change their mind over night. What the Americans did in Afghanistan and Iraq where right even though its not working Ideally at this time.

If the allies didnt go against Hitler where would we be now. Hitler & Saddam two of the same Iám afraid.

Imprisonment Without Trial no don´t agree with that, we had the Nürnberg Trials which were run by the Americans why not the same in this case ?

[ilw]

AussieSheila are you assuming that women in the Middle East aren't educated at all? Or what level of education are you talking about?
And education from within sounds decidedly subversive.

[clocker]

But do you really think terrorists don't know who they are killing?

I think that , for the most part, they don't care. If they were specifically targeting Australians ( and from your information, they were), then all the Balinese who also died were what? Irrelevant? An added bonus?
I think that the bombers first priority was to make as big an impression as possible and any political reasons were crafted after the fact to fit what had happened. If , for some strange reason there had been NO Aussies present that night, and instead a group of Japanese tourists, then the terorists would probably come up with a manifesto to justify that, too.

I'm not talking about liberating a country from a dictator (although that would be nice) I'm talking about education from within, so they at least stand a chance of liberating themselves

I think that the one has to preceed the other. No dictator, or repressive religious regime for that matter, is going to sit idly by whilst it's populace is educated to the point of rebellion. How 'ya gonna keep 'em down on the farm once they've seen Gay Paree? Look at the upsurge of populist protest in Iran.

[lynx]

Originally posted by clocker@13 September 2003 - 15:34

But do you really think terrorists don't know who they are killing?

I think that , for the most part, they don't care. If they were specifically targeting Australians ( and from your information, they were), then all the Balinese who also died were what? Irrelevant? An added bonus?
I think that the bombers first priority was to make as big an impression as possible and any political reasons were crafted after the fact to fit what had happened. If , for some strange reason there had been NO Aussies present that night, and instead a group of Japanese tourists, then the terorists would probably come up with a manifesto to justify that, too.

I think your logic is a bit twisted there, clocker.
The attack was in an area well known for a high number of Australian tourists, it would have been extremely unlikely that on that particular occasion the Australians were suddenly replaced by Japanese tourists. You seem to be suggesting that they picked a target at random, then justified their target afterwards - that just won't wash.

[clocker]

Originally posted by lynx@13 September 2003 - 08:42
You seem to be suggesting that they picked a target at random, then justified their target afterwards - that just won't wash.

Not at all, lynx.

I'm sure that they were very deliberate in their target selection.

What they couldn't control was the outcome. What if the death toll had been 95% Balinese instead of 1/2 Australian? Certainly, the bombers had no control over the deathtoll.
I wouldn't expect to hear them say "Ooops, we screwed up, we meant to kill more Australians..."
I would expect to hear some tripe which would ( to them at least) justify what has actually occured.
No matter the initial "political" intention, I still think that, in the end, bombers of this ilk simply don't really care. The body count is the main goal and the politics can be twisted later to fit.
If targeting Australians ( or anybody, for that matter) was the real goal, then wouldn't snipers be a better method? Or poison in the Fosters? Or any method less random than a bomb?

[Billy_Dean]

OK, Clocko, ... do you mind if I call you Clocko? If we were talking about somewhere in the States, I would defer to your local knowledge. Let me assure you, (and this point is really academic), the Bali bombing was aimed at Australians. If you'd ever been to Bali, you would understand this. I really don't see the point in arguing about this. What is the problem? The Sari club is an Australian hangout, can we leave it there?

Now, I'm really pissed, (in Australia, that means drunk, by the way&#33 I've had a great night, 5 live bands, lots of cheap beer, good company, and now I'm smoking a really nice joint. Aussie Sheila, a girl I very much admire and love, was expressing a point of view she is entitled to express. If I could stand up straight right now I would defend her, but f*ck it, you'll have to wait till I come out of this drunken stupor.

By the way, Frank Zappa sounds so much better when you're pissed, why is that?



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[clocker]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@13 September 2003 - 10:48
OK, Clocko, ... do you mind if I call you Clocko? If we were talking about somewhere in the States, I would defer to your local knowledge. Let me assure you, (and this point is really academic), the Bali bombing was aimed at Australians. If you'd ever been to Bali, you would understand this. I really don't see the point in arguing about this. What is the problem? The Sari club is an Australian hangout, can we leave it there?

I will happily defer to your expertise in this particular matter, then.

It's policies have made Australia a terrorist target.

Nearly 90 Australians died in Bali because of perceptions by extremists that this country is a military and ideological lackey of the United States.

So you are willing to have your foriegn policy dictated by "the perceptions of extremists"?
People who are willing to indiscriminately bomb their own countrymen just to target some Australians?
God forfend that Islamic fanatics ever take a dislike to Aussie rules football then, eh?

[Billy_Dean]

Hi Clocko, just about to crash out.

Nearly 90 Australians died in Bali because of perceptions by extremists that this country is a military and ideological lackey of the United States.



So you are willing to have your foriegn policy dictated by "the perceptions of extremists"?
People who are willing to indiscriminately bomb their own countrymen just to target some Australians?

Couldn't let you get away with this one mate ... we have no more control over what our government does than you do. Watch the next election!

As for your comment,

"the perceptions of extremists"

, isn't that what all our government's policies are based on? Isn't the war on terrorism a reaction to their perception of us? Or is 10 pots of beer clouding my mind? You know, I'd forgotten just how good a song "Dyna-Moh- Hum was!



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