Land Of The Free? Imprisonment Without Trial

[Barbarossa]

Originally posted by Billy_Dean@14 September 2003 - 14:10
@ Rat Faced. Hi.

I also believe male circumcism is wrong, and in Australia it is done for "health" reasons, because men cannot keep their penises clean underneath a foreskin.

As for piercing daughter's ears, my experience of this has been my daughters (3) begging to have it done, and me refusing. This may be more prevailent than you think.


B)

Just a couple of points:-

1). You can in no way compare male and female circumcisions, they are (quite obviously) completely different operations, done for completely different reasons.


2). Although I don't condone a religious reasons for cicumcision, the medical benefits of male circumcision are well documented. For some reason it's very uncommon in the UK, although I believe it's more common in the states (some 60% of males I think)


I personally had to undergo a circumcision a couple of years ago due to medical reasons, the immediate aftermath of the operation was absolute HELL and I really wished that it had been all over and done with when I had been an infant, it's alot simpler!! (Infants don't wake up in the middle of the night with am excutiatingly agonising stiffy straining the stitches for example&#33

But as soon as it healed it's been brilliant, feels better, looks OK, and the wife likes it better too.

[ilw]

Originally posted by AussieSheila+15 September 2003 - 00:57--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AussieSheila @ 15 September 2003 - 00:57)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ilw@14 September 2003 - 21:00
If the education you fund goes against the wishes of the government of the country, then i disagree.

What about the wishes of the people? The PEOPLE are asking for our help. The ordinary, everyday people of Afghanistan are asking the ordinary, everyday people (just like me) of the Western world for help. When I&#39;m considering ways that I CAN help, I won&#39;t be taking into consideration the &#39;wishes of the government&#39; at all, I&#39;m answering a plea for help. This is human rights. I don&#39;t believe I&#39;m forcing my Western ways on anyone.

Read this and tell me there is nothing we can or should do. Not in my name either, Mr. Howard.

http://www.rawa.org/betray.htm [/b][/quote]
Lets just skip the fact that you are in effect forcing democracy on these countries / people and are simultaneously assuming that democracy is somehow correct and any country&#39;s government that disagrees is to be ignored.

Where do you draw the line? Is it ok to teach any of their children who want to learn (irrespective of parents wishes)? If not then at what age do they become adults? If thats a minor point then what about any beliefs that women are not as capable as men and so fall into a different legal category much in the same way that children fall into a different legal category, should these beliefs be destroyed because they are &#39;wrong&#39;? If we in the west believe that its not right to teach children certain things (and the reason given is that they are not able to handle or somehow accept it) then what about countries where women are thought of in a similar fashion? Some countries may believe that they are protecting their women by not educating them. Just because we recognise anyone over 18 of either sex as a full adult doesn&#39;t mean other nations have to.

[AussieSheila]

You&#39;re not reading the links, if you were you would understand that I&#39;m not trying to force anything on them. They are themselves asking for help in these areas because they understand that without education and health services, not currently provided, there is no hope for a better future. They are not stupid, they are oppressed. It is a small but powerful minority inflicting these terrible conditions on the Afghani women, and there hasn&#39;t been much of an improvement since the Talaban were ousted. The women want change. I&#39;m not going to back off because a group of the biggest male pigs (scrap that, detrimental to a fine animal) to walk the earth happen to be at this point in time, in control.

Such a sweetie you&#33; Mother and sisters, no wife? You might want to keep it that way.

Go here
http://www.rawa.org/

[lynx]

Originally posted by ilw@15 September 2003 - 12:17

Lets just skip the fact that you are in effect forcing democracy on these countries / people and are simultaneously assuming that democracy is somehow correct and any country&#39;s government that disagrees is to be ignored.

Where do you draw the line? Is it ok to teach any of their children who want to learn (irrespective of parents wishes)? If not then at what age do they become adults? If thats a minor point then what about any beliefs that women are not as capable as men and so fall into a different legal category&nbsp; much in the same way that children fall into a different legal category, should these beliefs be destroyed because they are &#39;wrong&#39;? If we in the west believe that its not right to teach children certain things (and the reason given is that they are not able to handle or somehow accept it) then what about countries where women are thought of in a similar fashion? Some countries may believe that they are protecting their women by not educating them. Just because we recognise anyone over 18 of either sex as a full adult doesn&#39;t mean other nations have to.

I&#39;m glag you skipped the fact of forcing democracy on people, because that wasn&#39;t what was being discussed, I rather think we were talking about education.

Let me see if I&#39;ve understood you correctly, are you saying that it is ok for women to be treated as second class citizens because their (male controlled) government says that&#39;s the way it has to be?

Perhaps you haven&#39;t realised it yet, but there is a slighht difference between women and children. Yes, there are always going to be slight differences in the age at which adulthood is legally attained, what of it? Children are children, they don&#39;t have the mental experience to handle some of the things we as adults do, but women have the same mental capacity as men (well almost ) and there is no reason why a male controlled government should deny them the right (yes, it is a basic human right) to education.

[Billy_Dean]

Biography of
martyred Meena,
founding leader of RAWA


MEENA (1956-1987) was born on February 27, 1956 in Kabul. During her school days, students in Kabul and other Afghan cities were deeply engaged in social activism and rising mass movements. She left the university to devote herself as a social activist to organizing and educating women. In pursuit of her cause for gaining the right of freedom of expression and conducting political activities, Meena laid the foundation of RAWA in 1977. This organization was meant to give voice to the deprived and silenced women of Afghanistan. She started a campaign against the Russian forces and their puppet regime in 1979 and organized numerous processions and meetings in schools, colleges and Kabul University to mobilize public opinion. Another great service rendered by her for the Afghan women is the launching of a bilingual magazine, Payam-e-Zan (Women&#39;s Message) in 1981. Through this magazine RAWA has been projecting the cause of Afghan women boldly and effectively. Payam-e-Zan has constantly exposed the criminal nature of fundamentalist groups. Meena also established Watan Schools for refugee children, a hospital and handicraft centers for refugee women in Pakistan to support Afghan women financially. At the end of 1981, by invitation of the French Government Meena represented the Afghan resistance movement at the French Socialist Party Congress. The Soviet delegation at the Congress, headed by Boris Ponamaryev, shamefacedly left the hall as participants cheered when Meena started waving a victory sign. Besides France, she also visited several other European countries and met their prominent personalities. Her active social work and effective advocacy against the views of the fundamentalists and the puppet regime provoked the wrath of the Russians and the fundamentalist forces alike and she was assassinated by agents of KHAD (Afghanistan branch of KGB) and their fundamentalist accomplices in Quetta, Pakistan, on February 4,1987.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Translation of a part of a poem by Meena

I’LL NEVER RETURN

I&#39;m the woman who has awoken
I&#39;ve arisen and become a tempest through the ashes of my burnt children
I&#39;ve arisen from the rivulets of my brother&#39;s blood
My nation&#39;s wrath has empowered me
My ruined and burnt villages fill me with hatred against the enemy
Oh compatriot, no longer regard me weak and incapable,
My voice has mingled with thousands of arisen women
My fists are clenched with fists of thousands compatriots
To break all these sufferings all these fetters of slavery.
I&#39;m the woman who has awoken,
I&#39;ve found my path and will never return.


OK ilw, you ignore them, I won&#39;t&#33; Whatever it is you believe, that&#39;s fine. You can argue till you&#39;re blue in the face if you wish. I don&#39;t care for your views, and I no longer wish to espouse mine to you.

[ang3968]

Originally posted by ilw+15 September 2003 - 22:17--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ilw &#064; 15 September 2003 - 22:17)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by AussieSheila@15 September 2003 - 00:57
<!--QuoteBegin-ilw

@14 September 2003 - 21:00
If the education you fund goes against the wishes of the government of the country, then i disagree.

What about the wishes of the people? The PEOPLE are asking for our help. The ordinary, everyday people of Afghanistan are asking the ordinary, everyday people (just like me) of the Western world for help. When I&#39;m considering ways that I CAN help, I won&#39;t be taking into consideration the &#39;wishes of the government&#39; at all, I&#39;m answering a plea for help. This is human rights. I don&#39;t believe I&#39;m forcing my Western ways on anyone.

Read this and tell me there is nothing we can or should do. Not in my name either, Mr. Howard.

http://www.rawa.org/betray.htm

Lets just skip the fact that you are in effect forcing democracy on these countries / people and are simultaneously assuming that democracy is somehow correct and any country&#39;s government that disagrees is to be ignored.

Where do you draw the line? Is it ok to teach any of their children who want to learn (irrespective of parents wishes)? If not then at what age do they become adults? If thats a minor point then what about any beliefs that women are not as capable as men and so fall into a different legal category much in the same way that children fall into a different legal category, should these beliefs be destroyed because they are &#39;wrong&#39;? If we in the west believe that its not right to teach children certain things (and the reason given is that they are not able to handle or somehow accept it) then what about countries where women are thought of in a similar fashion? Some countries may believe that they are protecting their women by not educating them. Just because we recognise anyone over 18 of either sex as a full adult doesn&#39;t mean other nations have to. [/b][/quote]
Lets just skip the fact that you are in effect forcing democracy on these countries / people and are simultaneously assuming that democracy is somehow correct and any country&#39;s government that disagrees is to be ignored.


I don&#39;t think anyone is saying the wishes of the government is to be ignored..... but is it more wrong to ignore the wishes of the people????


Where do you draw the line? Is it ok to teach any of their children who want to learn (irrespective of parents wishes)?

I&#39;m sorry.... are we talking of education of grown women asking for help or children???

If thats a minor point then what about any beliefs that women are not as capable as men and so fall into a different legal category much in the same way that children fall into a different legal category, should these beliefs be destroyed because they are &#39;wrong&#39;?

So a minority of men (or more if you so wish) believe women are not capable.... so this makes it fact?? I think the only person forcing their belief on anyone is you... yes some countries may believe their women are second or even third class citizens... but if the women wish to be educated and are asking for help who says this is wrong??... Not so long ago (insert country here) had laws and beliefs that are now known to be wrong/against humanity... it takes education and an open mind to change things...

Now, please forgive me for butting in... I hope I haven&#39;t got the wrong end of the stick here.... if I have, direct me to the right end and I shall argue that point with you or agree with you....... one of the two anyway....

[ilw]

You&#39;re right i hadn&#39;t read the link, I couldn&#39;t be arsed. I just checked it and i&#39;m now of the opinion that its nothing i wasn&#39;t aware of, all very sad, but irrelevant. Have a look here for some more sad news http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3097728.stm

And you are wrong, you are forcing something on them. Dispel the notion that people should get what they want because THAT IS democracy and you&#39;ll realise that by ignoring their governments wishes you ARE forcing democracy on the country. You just have to lose the blinkers that an entire life in democracy has given you. People don&#39;t know whats best for them and the majority is not always right.

Education is a basic human right in the west. Other countries/people have not agreed to that. And just as you see children being different to adults can you not see why some people think that women are different to men? If this were a matriarchy and men were considered to be incapable of learning then i would be arguing exactly the same thing. What i&#39;m arguing is not that women can be treated as second class citizens, but that countries have a basic right to self government which you are denying them. However i don&#39;t think there is anything setting out basic rights for country&#39;s so why is it wrong to force all our beliefs on other countries, I&#39;m sure a lot of our beliefs are better than theirs. Why is it wrong to control another country?

If they held a referendum in Afghanistan on whether women should be allowed to be educated and it came back no , would you still ignore their wishes and teach those who want to be taught?

Or does anyone wish to be scientific and argue biological differences between children / women / men and that religion should bow to these facts. If so make some points and i&#39;ll argue against them

The scary thing which no one has picked up on is that if you follow my argument to the logical end then a country can do anything to its inhabitants.


Edit: invade -> control

[AussieSheila]

B) The original point was that the money being spent on the &#39;war on terrorism&#39; could be put to much better use. The current occupation, sorry, liberation of Iraq, is failing dismally as a way to peace. What&#39;s the count now, 72 American soldiers dead, since the war was &#39;won&#39;. How many Iraqi&#39;s?

It is the diplomats working quietly behind the scenes that are actually having the biggest impact. Not the brute force in the streets.

[ilw]

I&#39;m gonna start my own country and show the world how crap democracy is, then i&#39;ll take over the rest of the world. Just you wait

But yeah, I&#39;ll shut up now, I don&#39;t think anyone understands what i&#39;m talking about, I thought for a moment Rat Faced did, but no
I give up

[ang3968]

are you playing the devils advocate now???

People don&#39;t know whats best for them and the majority is not always right.

so by this way of thinking the minority is more right especially if they hold a position in government??

Education is a basic human right in the west. Other countries/people have not agreed to that.

It is the basic human right of everyone. How can someone make an informed choice without some form of education??.... who says they don&#39;t want an education???.... who says the minority are making the RIGHT decision???

And just as you see children being different to adults can you not see why some people think that women are different to men? If this were a matriarchy and men were considered to be incapable of learning then i would be arguing exactly the same thing

There is a huge difference between an adult and a child.... and even uneducated people can see this difference. Whether you are arguing this point for men or women it is still wrong.... the only difference we have is in our physical selves so we can continue to populate..... there is no difference that recognises one sex needs to be educated over another..

The scary thing which no one has picked up on is that if you follow my argument to the logical end then a country can do anything to its inhabitants.

Isn&#39;t that happening now???


what???????............................... I just typed all that and you want to give up now?????...... too bad..... I&#39;m posting it anyway.... lol