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Thread: ...and your heroes

  1. #51
    Skiz's Avatar (_8(I)
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    Quote Originally Posted by BawA View Post
    am not against jews pal i just dont recognize "Israel". this state was based on force and occupation.
    What a silly rationale...


    yo

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lynx View Post
    I think that to some extent you've just highlighted part of the problem, and it was nice of you to capitalise it.

    The fact is that it used to be THEIR drinking water, THEIR fuel, THEIR food.
    Although you may have considerably enhanced them (and at the same time increased the strains on the very same resources) what right do you think you have to refuse access to them?
    Because they took it, that's why. The same as every piece of land on this planet was taken by force from one country or another.

    Who's water, food, or fuel it was is of little consequence...

    It's understandable why the Palestinians want it back, but they're gonna have to take it. Sucker punches aren't going to do it though.
    again "they did it so we do it"


    "You can be mad as a mad dog at the way things went; you can swear and curse the fates, but when it comes to the end, you have to let go"
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  3. The Drawing Room   -   #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by BawA View Post
    am not against jews pal i just dont recognize "Israel". this state was based on force and occupation.
    What a silly rationale...
    Ignore function didnt work?


    "You can be mad as a mad dog at the way things went; you can swear and curse the fates, but when it comes to the end, you have to let go"
    Benjamen button

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skizo View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lynx View Post
    I think that to some extent you've just highlighted part of the problem, and it was nice of you to capitalise it.

    The fact is that it used to be THEIR drinking water, THEIR fuel, THEIR food.
    Although you may have considerably enhanced them (and at the same time increased the strains on the very same resources) what right do you think you have to refuse access to them?
    Because they took it, that's why. The same as every piece of land on this planet was taken by force from one country or another.

    Who's water, food, or fuel it was is of little consequence...

    It's understandable why the Palestinians want it back, but they're gonna have to take it. Sucker punches aren't going to do it though.
    Okay then, you seem to be suggesting that might is right.
    In that case stop criticising the Palestinians if they are trying to take those resources back by force.
    Think it through next time.
    .
    Political correctness is based on the principle that it's possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #55
    ...
    Given the volte face that I've performed since moving to Israel four years ago, I was asked to describe my most influential experience thus far, in terms of providing a catalyst to the political journey [zionist -> 2 state supporter] upon which I've embarked.

    Without hesitation, I replied that it had been my illicit trip to Bethlehem during a weekend furlough from the army. Our unit was serving in the city at the time, and – until then – I had been conditioned to see the residents as potential terrorists who had to be dealt with accordingly in order to avert a deadly threat to our safety.

    With no M16 by my side or grenade in my pack, I passed through the checkpoint and took my first tentative steps on so-called enemy terrain. In jeans and a T-shirt, I walked the same streets of the Aida refugee camp that a day earlier I'd been patrolling armed to the teeth and with five other soldiers backing me up.

    I gazed casually at the same windows and doors at which I'd previously had to stare, hawk-like, in case a gunman or bomber should burst out and attack our squad. I looked calmly at the same gangs of youths who, when I was in uniform, I'd had to judge in an instant – whether they were benignly intentioned or baying for my blood.

    The fear instilled in me by the army all but dissipated once I was simply a tourist strolling through the town. Conversely, the more weaponry and protective gear I carried, the more terrifying the place became which, it dawned on me, was a distillation of Israel's core and eternal paradox – one that has dogged it since the moment the state was created.

    For there to be a justification for Israel's existence, there first has to exist an existential threat to the Jewish people. Granted, history has handed us that fear of annihilation on a plate, but just because the fear exists, it doesn't necessarily follow that what is feared does too.

    A prominent narrative of the Jewish tradition is that, in every generation, a manifestation of Amalek will attempt to wipe out the Jewish people, just as the original marauding Amalekites did during the Jews' exodus from Egypt. The Romans, Babylonians, Greeks, Soviets and Nazis have all, understandably, been christened modern-day Amalekites – and now Iran is being touted as the most recent member of the millennia-old dynasty.

    Fear of extermination is the ace in the Jewish pack of emotions, and has been capitalised on in spades by the virulent strain of nationalism encapsulated in today's Zionism. Occupy an entire people and crush their hopes and dreams for 40 years? A necessary evil – if we don't then we're done for. Fly in the face of international law, basic morality, and even the central tenets of our own, ostensibly compassionate, religion? Sorry, but you have to understand that "they" all want us dead; it's us or them, from now until eternity.

    It's almost irrelevant who "they" are. One day it's the Palestinians for daring to try to shake off the yoke of oppression; the next it's the European left for having the nerve to intercede on behalf of justice and decency. "They" can be a lone gunman, such as Norman Finkelstein or "they" can be a billion people, such as the world's entire Muslim population, conveniently repackaged as one homogenous group based on spurious racial profiling.

    Concrete walls are built between "us" and "them"; orders are given banning Israelis from crossing the divide into PA territory – all under the banner of protecting the security of Israelis. In reality, however, they are merely an insidious attempt to hermetically seal Israel off from the outside world and convince the Israelis that it's an unavoidable measure to take.

    Those of us who've come, seen, and conquered our preconceptions of the Palestinian street know full well that the canards being propagated are simply preposterous. Of course, there are some very angry, very violent militants among the Palestinian people, but so too are there similarly dangerous elements in Israeli society, as well as in every ethnic group around the world.

    The reaction amongst my Israeli friends when they hear of my trips to Jenin, Ramallah or Bethlehem is usually one of abject horror that I even set foot inside the cities, let alone met the locals and visited them in their homes. "They'd kill you if they knew you were Jewish," they cry, utterly convinced that a Palestinian wolf lies behind every refugee camp door. The truth is far different, of course; almost everyone I meet knows I am both Jewish and Israeli, and – thus far – I've been neither beaten, beheaded nor bludgeoned to death.

    It's totally understandable why the mythology and misconceptions flourish unchecked amongst the Israeli man on the street, or in the diaspora Jewish community. In the vacuum left by enforced separation between Jews and Palestinians, rampant fabrication runs riot, and fiction becomes truth in the minds of the masses. It's also understandable that the government encourages and promotes such fairy tales, in order to garner support for their never ending policies of irredentism and subjugation.

    But just because it's understandable doesn't make it in any way acceptable. Morals and ethics are crushed under the wheels of the nationalist juggernaut, and what would be entirely unpalatable in any other circumstance becomes not only tolerated by society, but actively encouraged by the Israeli electorate and their cheerleaders around the world.

    By continuing to provoke and bully the Palestinians, they create what they fear. Another generation branded Amalekites: another reason for Israelis to circle the wagons, batten down the hatches, and convince themselves that it is simply their lot to be eternally hated and reviled. And no amount of well-intentioned pressure can ever be sufficient to penetrate the calcified layer of mistrust between the Jewish people and the outside world.
    seth freedman writing in the guardian.

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #56
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    "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not."
    --- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946.

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by torrentt View Post
    "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not."
    --- Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946.
    maybe not, but wasn't that an arab land? am not forcing you to use your long term memory which i doubt you have, just recall last time jews went to arab land and occupied it, was it empty and had "land for jews" sign on it?
    for god sake how ignorant are you, Jews refuged entire nation based on a silly "Balfour Declaration" which was imposed by an asshole named Chaim Weizmann.
    Last edited by BawA; 08-03-2008 at 01:56 PM.


    "You can be mad as a mad dog at the way things went; you can swear and curse the fates, but when it comes to the end, you have to let go"
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  8. The Drawing Room   -   #58
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    Again you do it.

    You refer to Jews and Arabs. You refer to one by their religion and to the other by which part of the World they come from. Can't you see that makes you look like a bigot, whether you are one or not.

    It really doesn't help your argument. Particularly as I'm quite sure there are non-Jews who would consider themselves to be Israeli. There must be at least a few Atheists or Agnostics or Christians oe heaven forfend Muslims there.

    So by you constantly referring to a "jew state" and the like you make it a religious rather than political argument.
    "there is nothing misogynistic about anything, stop trippin.
    i type this way because im black and from nyc chill son "

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #59
    i think the israelis here would say that Israel is a jewish state. And i think jewish people would say they are a 'race'.

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr JP Fugley View Post
    Again you do it.

    You refer to Jews and Arabs. You refer to one by their religion and to the other by which part of the World they come from. Can't you see that makes you look like a bigot, whether you are one or not.

    It really doesn't help your argument. Particularly as I'm quite sure there are non-Jews who would consider themselves to be Israeli. There must be at least a few Atheists or Agnostics or Christians oe heaven forfend Muslims there.

    So by you constantly referring to a "jew state" and the like you make it a religious rather than political argument.
    this is you talking but fact is opposite, how many times Olmert and his foreign minister and many others for decades have been declaring Israel a Jew state. you dont call that a racial then i dont know how you think.


    "You can be mad as a mad dog at the way things went; you can swear and curse the fates, but when it comes to the end, you have to let go"
    Benjamen button

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