A Lady by the name of...

[j2k4]

I see you are not answering my question.

The arguments being made by both sides about experience are basically political spin and bullshit. The double standard applies.




Rove on Cheney

Well, look, the best candidate training is to, is — you know, this is a guy who won elections in, in a very contested primary in Wyoming, where you have to do a lot of retail campaigning, and got reelected a number of times. He’s — it’s — he’s exercising those political muscles again.

Rove on Kaine

With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he’s been a governor for three years, he’s been able but undistinguished. I don’t think people could really name a big, important thing that he’s done. He was mayor of the 105th largest city in America. And again, with all due respect to Richmond, Virginia, it’s smaller than Chula Vista, California; Aurora, Colorado; Mesa or Gilbert, Arizona; north Las Vegas or Henderson, Nevada. It’s not a big town. So if he were to pick Governor Kaine, it would be an intensely political choice where he said, `You know what? I’m really not, first and foremost, concerned with, is this person capable of being president of the United States?

rove on Palin

She’s a populist, she’s an economic and a social conservative, she’s a reformer, she took on the incumbent governor of the state Frank Murkowski — Republican — beat him in the primary, won an upset in the general election. She’s a former mayor. She’s the mayor of, I think, the second largest city in Alaska before she ran for governor.

The democrats have identical double standards

plus that fact she's second, not first, on the ticket.

Any use of this thinking must mean that you don't think she's ready now.
As the position is literally one heartbeat away from being president, the VP has to be ready from the first day. Which ties into my first question.

I will first review your other post and attempt to answer your first question, "Will conservatives that vote republican be voting for a VP instead of president and if so why?"

You give me opportunity to explain my voting rationale to you.

As one who denies party affiliation, you surely must know enough about each of the parties to realize the general Republican stance more closely resembles my own than the Democrat bunch ever could, especially this go 'round.

So my options are, 1) do as you apparently will; write in a name or choose a third party candidate in order to remain true to my principles, but to no avail, or-

Take the next-best thing, which is McCain, who has chosen well for his running mate.

To fully answer your question, let me say that you seem to want to imagine a scenario wherein a Conservative contemplating a vote for Obama () might be reclaimed as a Republican by virtue of Palin's selection.

I could see a Dem being that wishy-washy, but please be serious.

As to the rest, I'm going to take them in order, without quotes.

Be careful to match them properly.

1) Please describe this double-standard you see, and fit the players to the roles as you see them.

2) The Rove stuff - his snapshot reads on the players...what of them?

3)Ticket position - Right back atcha.

Is she ready?

Now, pay close attention, because this is exactly and precisely my position:

Whether she is or not evades the operative fact, which is that she is, at an absolute minimum, the equal of Obama, who LEADS the Democrat ticket.


BTW-

Ian, I'm waiting.

[devilsadvocate]

I'm not suggesting that any conservative would vote Obama because they are not happy with McCain. I've heard plenty saying they would vote 3rd party and that vote would much better reflect their principles.

The question however made no reference to conservatives thinking of voting other than republican. It was very specific about conservatives that vote republican.

So let me rephrase the question for you.

Why are disheartened republican voting conservatives that state they will hold their nose to vote McCain so excited about the VP selection? Are they voting for a VP instead of a president and if so why?
The question doesn't involve democrats and democrats shouldn't be included in the answer. it's specifically about republican voting conservatives.

The Rove stuff was just one example of the double standard in denouncing a VP pick of the other side while ignoring the same problems with their own choices. What they are critical for the other side they phrase as a plus for their own. It's bullshit.

You seem intent on saying Palin's experience is the same as Obama's. So I'm assuming as you think Palin is a good choice you don't think experience or being ready matters.

On your voting rationale, you have made great efforts to state you are a conservative and not a republican as if it's principle not party you argue from. But you admit you will vote republican no matter. So you are voting against rather than for a candidate. A rationale that will lead to the democratic/republican seesaw status quo being sustained forever. If you want me to accept that you are a conservative and not a republican you surely see how this doesn't help your case.

We get the government we deserve, your rationale IMO will always ensure we get and deserve second best.

[j2k4]

I'm not suggesting that any conservative would vote Obama because they are not happy with McCain. I've heard plenty saying they would vote 3rd party and that vote would much better reflect their principles.

The question however made no reference to conservatives thinking of voting other than republican. It was very specific about conservatives that vote republican.

So let me rephrase the question for you.

Why are disheartened republican voting conservatives that state they will hold their nose to vote McCain so excited about the VP selection? Are they voting for a VP instead of a president and if so why?

The Rove stuff was just one example of the double standard in denouncing a VP pick of the other side while ignoring the same problems with their own choices. What they are critical for the other side they phrase as a plus for their own. It's bullshit.

You seem intent on saying Palin's experience is the same as Obama's. So I'm assuming as you think Palin is a good choice you don't think experience or being ready matters.

On your voting rationale, you have made great efforts to state you are a conservative and not a republican as if it's principle not party you argue from. But you admit you will vote republican no matter. So you are voting against rather than for a candidate. A rationale that will lead to the democratic/republican seesaw status quo being sustained forever. If you want me to accept that you are a conservative and not a republican you surely see how this doesn't help your case.

We get the government we deserve, your rationale IMO will always ensure we get and deserve second best.

"So excited"?

Faced with the prospect of eating a worm, would you be a bit more sanguine if it were slathered with icing?

Obama being (metaphorically, anyway) a bag of worms, and Biden another one.

Yes, we most certainly do get the government we deserve, but with the election looming after (literally) a two-year campaign, a credible third-party challenge is beyond us.

This is all so basic I wonder why I even feel compelled to explain...

Also-

Given that there are two other candidates altogether, I wonder what earth-shaking event could force you to reveal which one might be yours...or name your poison, feel free.

[devilsadvocate]

"So excited"?

Yes, excited. The news has been full of previously disheartened conservatives that are suddenly energized over the pick

Faced with the prospect of eating a worm, would you be a bit more sanguine if it were slathered with icing?

Obama being (metaphorically, anyway) a bag of worms, and Biden another one.

You are not answering the question, you are dancing around it and again feel you have to use democrats in the dance.

Yes, we most certainly do get the government we deserve, but with the election looming after (literally) a two-year campaign, a credible third-party challenge is beyond us.

This is all so basic I wonder why I even feel compelled to explain...

Also-

Given that there are two other candidates altogether, I wonder what earth-shaking event could force you to reveal which one might be yours...or name your poison, feel free.

Just two other candidates? Now granted the system we have makes it hard for a candidate to get on all the state ballots, which IMO is bad for democracy, but there are more than two 3rd party candidates.

I'm going to explain the question:

There are party loyalists that will cheer party no matter who the candidate is such as Sean Hannity (he's just an example, don't read anything into it).
There are party loyalists that will support the party on ballot day but make it known they are not happy and not cheer in the run up.
There are non party loyalists that feel they have to vote republican because they have no other choice.
There is another group that will either stay at home, or vote 3rd party, but the question is about party loyalist that will be holding their nose.
I pose the question to you because you appear to fit into one of the above, appear to be happy with Palin as a choice. And it's best to ask someone that fits instead of someone that doesn't to get the answer.

You make great noise over the difference between Obama being the president while Palin the vice president.

It has to be considered that McCain is old and suffers life threatening or incapacitating conditions healthwise so VP becoming president has a greater odds with McCain than we would otherwise have with a president. This sounds cold and lets hope he lives a long long life, but it is a reality that has to be factored in.

So are these nose holders and party protest defectors that are now rethinking, hoping Palin will be taking over? Because unless something happens to McCain -



BTW I know resumes generally have a certain amount of embelishment but have you attempted to scratch under the surface of hers to see if she's what she's made out to be as you claim is necessary with Obama?

Her stance on the bridge to nowhere perhaps.

For the record I think for the goals of the right wing of the republican party and the religious right she is a good choice. That doesn't mean I think she's a good choice for America

[Tracy]

Long time no see everyone. Hey J2.

Since this is where I first wet my feet in any political talk, I thought I'd stop in and see what was being said on this very topic.

My personal thoughts are that I like her.

I still, at this time, plan to vote for Ron Paul because represents what I want this country to be. McCain scares me for some reason, and Obama in my view is even worse.

So far as I can see, it is lack of experience that Obama has going for him and that's it. I don't like his plans for the country, but I do like that he is not a long time politician. Too bad he picked an oldy for his VP. Not that it would have made a difference for me, but it would have meant that he really meant change when he said it.

As far as Palin, well, she is new, but she has also been hard at work. She may not have some of the issues others have in their states, but if McCain had chosen one of the good ol boys from Alaska, would we be using location as an issue or singing their praises?

She, in her short time, has shown she is more then just words. She has actually done something. What did the ol boys do in the same position before her?

People are saying he used the sex card in picking her, but that belittles her actual accomplishments, and in my opinion makes those commentors the actual sexists.

But either way, it's still too early to say. I still plan on writing in Paul, but at least now I can consider voting for Palin (yes, I would base it on the VP) because it is no longer as scary as it was about 36 hours ago.

TD

[j2k4]

"So excited"?

Yes, excited. The news has been full of previously disheartened conservatives that are suddenly energized over the pick

Faced with the prospect of eating a worm, would you be a bit more sanguine if it were slathered with icing?

Obama being (metaphorically, anyway) a bag of worms, and Biden another one.

You are not answering the question, you are dancing around it and again feel you have to use democrats in the dance.

Yes, we most certainly do get the government we deserve, but with the election looming after (literally) a two-year campaign, a credible third-party challenge is beyond us.

This is all so basic I wonder why I even feel compelled to explain...

Also-

Given that there are two other candidates altogether, I wonder what earth-shaking event could force you to reveal which one might be yours...or name your poison, feel free.

Just two other candidates? Now granted the system we have makes it hard for a candidate to get on all the state ballots, which IMO is bad for democracy, but there are more than two 3rd party candidates.

I'm going to explain the question:

There are party loyalists that will cheer party no matter who the candidate is such as Sean Hannity (he's just an example, don't read anything into it).
There are party loyalists that will support the party on ballot day but make it known they are not happy and not cheer in the run up.
There are non party loyalists that feel they have to vote republican because they have no other choice.
There is another group that will either stay at home, or vote 3rd party, but the question is about party loyalist that will be holding their nose.
I pose the question to you because you appear to fit into one of the above, appear to be happy with Palin as a choice. And it's best to ask someone that fits instead of someone that doesn't to get the answer.

You make great noise over the difference between Obama being the president while Palin the vice president.

It has to be considered that McCain is old and suffers life threatening or incapacitating conditions healthwise so VP becoming president has a greater odds with McCain than we would otherwise have with a president. This sounds cold and lets hope he lives a long long life, but it is a reality that has to be factored in.

So are these nose holders and party protest defectors that are now rethinking, hoping Palin will be taking over? Because unless something happens to McCain -



BTW I know resumes generally have a certain amount of embelishment but have you attempted to scratch under the surface of hers to see if she's what she's made out to be as you claim is necessary with Obama?

Her stance on the bridge to nowhere perhaps.

For the record I think for the goals of the right wing of the republican party and the religious right she is a good choice. That doesn't mean I think she's a good choice for America

Now I'm lost.

It seems you are trying to put a fine point on a blunt instrument.

Do I think there are some who were disenchanted with McCain as a candidate but now have summoned some enthusiasm since he's announced Palin as his running mate?

Sure.

Numbers?

Possibly substantial.

What else do you need to hear?

BTW-

What possible problem could you have with her position on the infamous "Bridge to Nowhere"?

As an aside, while you are still scurrying about avoiding a label, I have divined that, since you are so sure McCain is about to die, the prospect of Palin in the Oval Office disquiets you.

I don't sense any trepidation over the possibility of an Obama presidency, however.

Interesting, huh?

[devilsadvocate]

Now I'm lost.

I think not, I think you are playing games

It seems you are trying to put a fine point on a blunt instrument.

Do I think there are some who were disenchanted with McCain as a candidate but now have summoned some enthusiasm since he's announced Palin as his running mate?

Sure.

Numbers?

Possibly substantial.

Thanks for that but it answers something I haven't asked.

What else do you need to hear?

I need to hear why these people that claim they have to hold their nose to vote for McCain, these people that said they could never vote for him, these people that say they are only voting for him because they don't want Obama to win are suddenly enthused at the prospects of voting for him because of his VP pick.
I already asked if it had anything to do with the prospect of McCain having to step down (that's the nicest way I can put it) Could it be they are not voting for McCain. They are voting for the pro lifer that wants creationism taught in science classes in the hope of McCain stepping down?

BTW-

What possible problem could you have with her position on the infamous "Bridge to Nowhere"?

What do you think her position is/was and do you think she always held it? Think I was for it before I was against it

In this day and age is it too hard to compare what they say now to what they said then?

As an aside, while you are still scurrying about avoiding a label, I have divined that, since you are so sure McCain is about to die, the prospect of Palin in the Oval Office disquiets you.

I don't sense any trepidation over the possibility of an Obama presidency, however.

Interesting, huh?

I don't like the idea of McCain, Obama or Biden there but all of them have given me reason not to fear them, domestically at least. Endure perhaps

[j2k4]

I need to hear why these people that claim they have to hold their nose to vote for McCain, these people that said they could never vote for him, these people that say they are only voting for him because they don't want Obama to win are suddenly enthused at the prospects of voting for him because of his VP pick.
I already asked if it had anything to do with the prospect of McCain having to step down (that's the nicest way I can put it) Could it be they are not voting for McCain. They are voting for the pro lifer that wants creationism taught in science classes in the hope of McCain stepping down?

So, you want to know why the "nose-holders", and the ones who would "never vote for McCain", are suddenly hot to vote for McCain?

Okay.

The nose-holders are voting against Obama.

The never-vote-for-McCain contingent is, by default, voting for Palin, and against Obama.

You couldn't figure that out without my help?

Ffs, what does it matter to you, anyway.

BTW-

Its people who, not people that.

Now that I've enlightened you, how do you feel, and what conclusions do you reach?

[devilsadvocate]

I conclude that you are one of those republican people THAT is hoping that McCain wins but that he has to step aside pretty soon. Pretty sad statement about where conservatism is in the party, considering there were far more conservative candidates beaten by McCain.

Did you look into any of Palin's background yet or are you accepting the nod as is?

You may find yourself holding your nose to vote for her as well.

[j2k4]

I conclude that you are one of those republican people THAT is hoping that McCain wins but that he has to step aside pretty soon. Pretty sad statement about where conservatism is in the party, considering there were far more conservative candidates beaten by McCain.

Did you look into any of Palin's background yet or are you accepting the nod as is?

You may find yourself holding your nose to vote for her as well.

I have bio'd her to a fare-thee-well.

I know about the deal with the state cop and his supervisor's firing.

I have no compunctions.

If McCain dropped dead immediately after the inauguration, I would be less unsettled than if Obama was in control.

In alluding to problems you see in Palin's past, you have already spent more time picking over a VP nominee than you have Obama and Tony Rezko or the Ayers character, neither of whom apparently bother you.

Try for some balance while you're being all independent and stuff, huh?