Israel & Palestine

[Rat Faced]

1) Are you pro-palestinean
2) Are you pro-Israeli
3) Are you simply antisemitic (meaning that you could care less about Palestine, you just want to bad things to come to the Jews).
4) Do you have anger toward American foreign policy, making you more anti-Israel rather than truly pro-palestinean. You pretend you are pro-palestinean to hide your true agenda.

5) Pro people.


Sorry hobbes, I have to side with the Pro People lobby.

There are bastards on both sides, and the people are the ones that get hit....again, on both sides.

To get a terrorist, they kill "people" that have nothing to do with the crime....in this case the Israeli government/army are the bad guys....sorry, but they are.

Likewise, when a terrorist kills a bus load of kids....its the organisation that sent him that are the bad guys.

Notice, in both cases....the people are the victims.

At no time have i seen EBP say he supports terrorism, he has merely stated that he understands why there is and sympathizes with the palestinians........as do I.

At other times he has sympathised with Israeli casualties...as have I.


At most he has said that the Israeli attrociaties are the greater, and yet again I agree with him.....on the 2 BASIC values whereby you can say they are greater.

1/ There are a lot more Pallestinian casualties (people) than Israeli (people)

2/ Israeli's are a nation...and as such should be following International Law, supported by the miliary aid of what, supposedly, is the "Home of Liberty", amongst others. The Pallestinian Terrorists are desperate Individuals, lead by a criminal organisation. ie They have no expectation for civilized behaviour from the international community, which doesnt make it right, but does make the Israeli actions worse... imho.

[noname12]

Bah nevermind.... will just cause more annoying insults and pointless arguements.

Delete please.

[hobbes]

1) Are you pro-palestinean
2) Are you pro-Israeli
3) Are you simply antisemitic (meaning that you could care less about Palestine, you just want to bad things to come to the Jews).
4) Do you have anger toward American foreign policy, making you more anti-Israel rather than truly pro-palestinean. You pretend you are pro-palestinean to hide your true agenda.

5) Pro people.

Sorry hobbes, I have to side with the Pro People lobby.

Should have been on my list, mea culpa.

Well, EBP certainly is not pro-people and his hatred bares this out. Words are sometimes just that.

There are bastards on both sides, and the people are the ones that get hit....again, on both sides.

I have said this over and over. I implored him that the street does travel both ways. He refused to budge.

I have never tried to justify that Israel is "right" and Palestine "wrong", I have just suggested that it a two way street and that there are extremists on both sides keeping the civilian population hostage. It is time that both sides got control of their extremists and stopped dying for their insanity.
I have also tried to explain why American policy is pro-Israel, rather than justify it.
I would say that I am far closer to being in the pro-people party than EBP. Honestly, I think both sides are just a bunch of lunatics, killing each other to defend their belief in a loving God. The irony is so bitterly rich.

To get a terrorist, they kill "people" that have nothing to do with the crime....in this case the Israeli government/army are the bad guys....sorry, but they are.

Likewise, when a terrorist kills a bus load of kids....its the organisation that sent him that are the bad guys.

Notice, in both cases....the people are the victims.

I have always unwaveringly agreed with this, as has Clocker. EBP will not admit this.

To be honest, I think Clocker can <span style='color:red'>relate to the Israelis better than the Palestineans, but I do not think that he finds their fight "the right one" and Palestineans in the wrong.

The issue has been discussed to death so I will stop here.</span>



The reason I responded to your thread was to make this point. When you post as YOU do, the cards are on the table and we can discuss issues. Look at how differently people respond to you versus EBP. Why do his exchanges always lead to name calling and anger. Why are those who disagree with him "filled with hatred". These are absurd claims and they undermine any useful discussion. If he were to reform his style, he could use his insights to win people over to or enlighten people of, his perspective, rather than turning people to the defensive by caustictic and personal remarks (I believe I was called a psychopath). How you say something can be more important than what you say.

[hobbes]

technical moment

[hobbes]

Err, moments. Board went screwy

[clocker]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@27 September 2003 - 16:54


2/&nbsp; Israeli&#39;s are a nation...and as such should be following International Law, supported by the miliary aid of what, supposedly, is the "Home of Liberty", amongst others. The Pallestinian Terrorists are desperate Individuals, lead by a criminal organisation. ie They have no expectation for civilized behaviour from the international community, which doesnt make it right, but does make the Israeli actions worse... imho.

If the Palestinian terrorists are "desperate individuals" lead by a "criminal organization", then what right do they have trying to bargain their way into statehood?
Why should the US or Israel or any other legitimate state deal with them at all?

It seems to me that there is a strange duality at play here- Israel is condemned for it&#39;s actions because it is a "real" country, and the Palestininians are forgiven their transgressions because they are not.

How many times do you prod a tiger with a sharp stick before you realize that the response is disproportionate to the stimulus? How many teenaged suicide bombers does it take before some bright Palestinian says "Gee, you know this tactic isn&#39;t really working out too well? Pretty soon the Israeli Apaches are gonna drop another bo..."?
Why have the Palestinians continued to squander their ace in the hole- their role as the underdog?

There don&#39;t seem to be any white hats in this arena. I have seen Israeli leaders called criminals and terrorists.
Okay, fair enough.
So are Arafat and his gang.

I think that many of the Muslim countries are using the Palestine/Israel conflict as a convenient pressure release valve. Bleed off and divert dissension in their own countries by diverting it to the Palestinian problem. Allah forbid that these wild-eyed Islamic extremists stay at home and focus their attention on say, the House of Saud. Far better that they travel to Iraq, or Afghanistan or Palestine and sow their wild oats.

On the other side, I think that the Israelis see every suicide bomber not as an individual case of a brainwashed kid, but as the spearhead of a wide ranging and unified attack by all of it&#39;s Islamic neighbors. Give an inch in your response and next thing you know, Syria is at the door.

I say, give the Palestinians statehood. I don&#39;t even care about the borders. Once they get their country though, they had better clean up their act.

[noname12]

Oh for the love of Allah, God, Jahova and what ever else,
I find your post, clocker, the single most annoying post I have had the mispleasure of reading my entire life of internet usage, so now not only are palestinians terrorists, but dumb ass animals too?
For one your use of muslim extremist is incorrect, by true Islamic terms an extremist is one who practices extreme pioty (spelling?), follows every last Islamic law to the letter and practices precuation in doubted laws, people like Ayetollah Sistani is an extremist by true nature.
Second of all your idea that no matter how the palestinians get treated they will gladly lob there teenagers at you is to be honest disapointing and your defence of a state like israel is rather suspicious...
Israel uses the same tactics as Palestine, if not worse, but israel is the worse of the two "devils" in this case, we all know the mosad has infiltrated Hamas and Islamic Jihad to such an extent that they can tell you where the leader of Hamas is going to eat in two years time , with the palestinians who have sold out and the mosad agents inside they can easely, and i mean easely strike the supposed terrorist in areas that have almost no civilian popoulus, but no they decide to hit while they sleep in there beds, with there families in packed apartment blocks... they do decide to hit at times where they can cause maximum infrastructure/civilian damage and still pass it off as an "unfortunate" part of the ongoing war against "terrorism"... its what is called scare tactics . Why are the Israelis worse?
Well the palestinian suicide bombers dont have a choice to go to a packed military base with lovely Israeli sniper guard towers waiting to give you a warm welcome, and those homely apache helicopters above there heads, so they are forced to use more unpleasant tactics, where as Israel can easely take out there enemies, with complete ease, and cause the most minimal civilian losses. You know the mosad as much as I do, they are so perfect at there job they have been able to get to the most highly guarded Islamic leaders and hit them, one example, Ayetollah Khamini, they put an explosive tape in a meeting of the highest Islamic scholars, he lost his arm in the explosian.... Ayetollah Khamini probably the most highly guarded Islamic scholar.
Second, Hasan Nusrullah, his son was poisened, the son of the leader of the Hizbullah Gorilla movement.
They have shown there ability, especially how they always manage to pinpoint the exact movements of Palestinian "terrorists" while they move in there cars.
Israel is just as guilty, well in my view, are more guilty then the rest, they deserve to be punished for crimes not the palestinians.
Oh and another thing, the Israeli military loves so much to go into Palestinian lands, they barley get shot at... you think it would be hard for Israelis to slip into gaza or westbank at night, go the the places the "terrorists" are and assasinate them with one shot to the head? blah, they have control of the borders not palestine.

How many times do you prod a tiger with a sharp stick before you realize that the response is disproportionate to the stimulus?

I think this applies more to your israeli buddies, then Palestine

[clocker]

Oh for the love of Allah, God, Jahova and what ever else,
I find your post, clocker, the single most annoying post I have had the mispleasure of reading my entire life of internet usage, so now not only are palestinians terrorists, but dumb ass animals too?

Noname, you either have a very short history of internet usage or a very low annoyance threshold. Where did I call Palestinians "dumb ass animals"?

Second of all your idea that no matter how the palestinians get treated they will gladly lob there teenagers at you is to be honest disapointing and your defence of a state like israel is rather suspicious...

Well, they do seem to "lob their teenagers" with depressing regularity, don&#39;t you think?
In both of these threads I have consistently stated that I was pro-Israeli so I&#39;m not sure how that would be "suspicious"...

we all know the mosad has infiltrated Hamas and Islamic Jihad to such an extent that they can tell you where the leader of Hamas is going to eat in two years time , with the palestinians who have sold out and the mosad agents inside they can easely, and i mean easely strike the supposed terrorist in areas that have almost no civilian popoulus, but no they decide to hit while they sleep in there beds, with there families in packed apartment blocks... they do decide to hit at times where they can cause maximum infrastructure/civilian damage and still pass it off as an "unfortunate" part of the ongoing war against "terrorism"... its what is called scare tactics&nbsp; . Why are the Israelis worse?

I think that you attribute powers/skills to Israeli intelligence that surpasses James Bond and approaches the supernatural. I&#39;m sure that the Mossad is flattered. I guess, given this belief, you are a part of the "laughing Israeli" brigade then, eh?

QUOTE&nbsp;
How many times do you prod a tiger with a sharp stick before you realize that the response is disproportionate to the stimulus?


I think this applies more to your israeli buddies, then Palestine

Were the Palestinians as well armed and as organized as the Israelis then I might agree. As it is, I think you misunderstood the metaphor.

[hobbes]

As for misunderstanding the metaphor, I think he may be thinking that an "underdog" is an actual animal.

[noname12]

sorry was away from the computer, now lets see.
Now friend clocker, my internet life has been too long but anyway first the mosad, believe me when I say my words do not mean to flatter them idiots, but where I have been, people would say my words are an understatement , there is to much evidence of there works in the middle east, I guess the only way to believe it is to go see it for your self... I would personally suggest Syria.

My animal statement was refering to that charming tiger remark, it seems obvious that a country is pretty different to the response of an animal, Hamas does actually change its strategies depending on the ferocity (spelling?) or lack of, used by the Israeli military, but thats a different, long and encriminating story .

as for the suspicious remark, i am a very paranoid and conspiracy theory driven person, ahem ahem .

I did not misunderstand the metaphor, you say no matter how they get treated they will react the same, and from what I see, no matter what the Palestinians do, Israel acts the same... Araft - "Lets talk peace.", Sharon - "His words is a direct attack on the israeli state, this warrants a full scale incursion into the wastbank and gaza and allows us to destroy whatever annoys our eyes", Hamas - "eeh, we&#39;re getting tired of being massacred... how about we let things rest for now"
Sharon - "... Ah forget the speach, Just go and kill them" and so on... (event may have been exagerated by me)

Ah well All&#39;s fair in love and war, Israel can kill civilians, so i think palestine should have the same privalage. At the end of the day this will typically end with a huge war, Jews VS Muslims, the plans of the Israeli state is so plane that I dont really need to point it out.

oh and for the mosad thing, how is it possible for those helicopters to know what road there driving down, what room Hamas leaders sleep in, and what people they meet if they werent so deep inside the Hamas ranks? its simple Israel looses 10 civilians per attack, but each attack gives them another 100% support and justification to further into Palestinian lands, and now there beginning to set there eyes on other borders, its simple really. And why would this be so hard to believe? the majority in the Israeli government is Right wing "extremist" jews who dont want peace, by there own words, and would love nothing more then to march straight to the Muslim holy land and raze it to the ground. To them its just simple politics and PR.

Edit: typo