Gay Rights

[Gemby!]

i dont know why but i dont agree with the gay marriage thing
probably how i have been brougt up or something (no bad comments please)

i aint gonna say some long sentance about why i think this or act like i totally disagree or something cos i dont mind gay people being - umm gay its just i dont think they should get married

[TheDave]

if marriage is holy matrimony.

and god doesnt agree with gays

does that mean for gay marriages to be proper they have to be evil

[jbrockz]

i believe those who have seen from both the view-points, church and state, have at least attempted to see the whole picture....there are many things [read laws, provisions, etc] where the church and state clash. example, when galileo said that the sun and not the earth is the center and that the earth is not flat, he was arrested by the church officials who declared him a heretic. however, i don't think there is a single individual today that would say the earth is flat and all those who say otherwise are heretics. if the science was thwarted right there, maybe we would still be believing that the earth is flat. the issue was spared by many from being seen from only a religious standpoint and we have that to thank for today's world of science and its rapid progress.

i believe that gay marraiges, from the state standpoint, should be made legal and carry all the perks of hetero wedlock. As for religion, well, to quote from the book, ''a brief history of time'' by stephen w. hawking

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He
described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast
collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and
said: “What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant
tortoise.” The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, “What is the tortoise standing on.” “You’re very
clever, young man, very clever,” said the old lady. “But it’s turtles all the way down!”

That is the nature of belief, once it has become a part of you, you don't change it. So, the decision to accept or reject from a religious standpoint is best left with the individual.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by jbrockz@21 September 2003 - 01:59
i believe those who have seen from both the view-points, church and state, have at least attempted to see the whole picture....there are many things [read laws, provisions, etc] where the church and state clash. example, when galileo said that the sun and not the earth is the center and that the earth is not flat, he was arrested by the church officials who declared him a heretic. however, i don't think there is a single individual today that would say the earth is flat and all those who say otherwise are heretics. if the science was thwarted right there, maybe we would still be believing that the earth is flat. the issue was spared by many from being seen from only a religious standpoint and we have that to thank for today's world of science and its rapid progress.

i believe that gay marraiges, from the state standpoint, should be made legal and carry all the perks of hetero wedlock. As for religion, well, to quote from the book, ''a brief history of time'' by stephen w. hawking

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He
described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast
collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and
said: “What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant
tortoise.” The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, “What is the tortoise standing on.” “You’re very
clever, young man, very clever,” said the old lady. “But it’s turtles all the way down!”

That is the nature of belief, once it has become a part of you, you don't change it. So, the decision to accept or reject from a religious standpoint is best left with the individual.

I love that quote, I use it all the time.

It is my shorthand to my friends that the person speaking doesn't even have a clue of their own illogic, no insight whatsoever.

I just poke my friends, point to the offender, and say, "It's turtles all the way down".


Just curious, what languages do you speak and which would you consider the one in which you are most comfortable.

[jbrockz]

about the last part, i sent you a PM.

[james_bond_rulez]

Originally posted by jbrockz@21 September 2003 - 00:59
That is the nature of belief, once it has become a part of you, you don't change it. So, the decision to accept or reject from a religious standpoint is best left with the individual.

mmm interesting, so you are saying it's up to individuals to decide if it is religously, politically, and socially acceptable to have gay marriages.

but this is not simply a matter of right and wrong, this is a matter of what you believe.

If people believe that gay marriages are not acceptable, do you label them with the lady that says "it's turtles all the way down"? NO

It's imprecise science.

[jbrockz]

mmm interesting, so you are saying it's up to individuals to decide if it is religously, politically, and socially acceptable to have gay marriages.

but this is not simply a matter of right and wrong, this is a matter of what you believe.

If people believe that gay marriages are not acceptable, do you label them with the lady that says "it's turtles all the way down"? NO

i think its important to explain the context of the little old lady. i cannot speak for stephen hawking, but i can tell you what i think. during the time of galileo, a flat earth was the official church-sanctioned version of the universe. if we were somehow to be transported to that era, we would find that EVERYONE believed in it. Sailors set sail to discover the edge of the world. One would be considered the village idiot for speaking about such things as galaxies and black holes and supernovae and nebulae, terms that are commonplace and proved by modern technology in today's era. in fact, galileo existed centuries ago. even an old lady from a century ago would know the earth was round cause by then the question of the earth's shape was put to rest and newton et al were coming up with laws of motion and gravity and predicting the path of planets. i think stephen hawking used the little old lady to symbolise hard-set beliefs, the natural human tendency to resist change.

I am not saying anyone who believes being gay is evil is wrong, i m just saying this is what religious people believe today, and i m not the one to ask them to change. I have the strength of my beliefs and they have the strength of theirs. Maybe, a century from now someone saying this would be told, ''yeah right, its turtles all the way down'', but as of today, this is the official church-santioned version and one cannot disregard it. Hence, the decision to personally accept the notion of gay wedlock is best left to the individual and his beliefs.

[infamousalbo101]

gay people are so gay

[jbrockz]

[Biggles]

Perhaps I mis-read the introduction to Brief History, but I took the quote to mean not that the little old lady really believed that the world was flat and sat upon an infinite number of turtles, but rather she was humourously demonstrating that "knowing" anything required, to a degree, a leap of faith. I took its inclusion in Stephan Hawkings book to indicate that he himself approached the subject matter with a element of humility and was not claiming to offer the whole truth (whatever that might actually mean).

Anyway, everyone knows, thanks to the insights provided by Terry Pratchett, that there are four elephants between the world and the turtle.