Obamacare

[devilsadvocate]

Here is a circular I received this morning from my brother-in-law in Ohio;

***************

SENIOR DEATH WARRANTS:

The actress Natasha Richardson died after falling skiing in Canada . It took eight hours to drive her to a hospital. If Canada had our healthcare she might be alive today. In the United States , we have medical evacuation helicopters that would have gotten her to the hospital in 30 minutes.

In England anyone over 59 cannot receive heart repairs or stents or bypass because it is not covered as being too expensive and not needed.

Obama wants to have a healthcare system just like Canada 's and England 's.

I got this today and am sending it on. If Obama's plans in other areas don't scare you, this should. Please do not let Obama sign senior death warrants. Everybody that is on this mailing list is either a senior citizen, is getting close or knows somebody that is.

Most of you know by now that the Senate version (at least) of the "stimulus" Bill includes provisions for extensive rationing of health care for senior citizens. The author of this part of the bill, former senator and tax evader, Tom Daschle was credited today by Bloomberg with the following statement:

Bloomberg: Daschle says "health-care reform will not be pain free. Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that
come with age instead of treating them."

If this does not sufficiently raise your ire, just remember that our esteemed Senators and Congressmen have their own healthcare plan that is first dollar or very low co-pay which they are guaranteed the remainder of their lives and are not subject to this new law if it passes.

Please use the power of the Internet to get this message out. Talk it up at the grassroots level. We have an election coming up in one year and nine months. And we have the ability to address and reverse the dangerous direction the Obama administration and its allies have begun and in the interim, we can make their lives miserable. Let's do this!

***********
My brother-in-law thinks that this circular is very scary considering his knowledge of how good the British National Health service is.

Does your brother in law think it scary because he knows some will actually believe the chain email when he knows it's a pile of bullcrap or does he think it's scary because he thinks it's true?.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...lder_than.html

[bigboab]

Here is a circular I received this morning from my brother-in-law in Ohio;

***************

SENIOR DEATH WARRANTS:

The actress Natasha Richardson died after falling skiing in Canada . It took eight hours to drive her to a hospital. If Canada had our healthcare she might be alive today. In the United States , we have medical evacuation helicopters that would have gotten her to the hospital in 30 minutes.

In England anyone over 59 cannot receive heart repairs or stents or bypass because it is not covered as being too expensive and not needed.

Obama wants to have a healthcare system just like Canada 's and England 's.

I got this today and am sending it on. If Obama's plans in other areas don't scare you, this should. Please do not let Obama sign senior death warrants. Everybody that is on this mailing list is either a senior citizen, is getting close or knows somebody that is.

Most of you know by now that the Senate version (at least) of the "stimulus" Bill includes provisions for extensive rationing of health care for senior citizens. The author of this part of the bill, former senator and tax evader, Tom Daschle was credited today by Bloomberg with the following statement:

Bloomberg: Daschle says "health-care reform will not be pain free. Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that
come with age instead of treating them."

If this does not sufficiently raise your ire, just remember that our esteemed Senators and Congressmen have their own healthcare plan that is first dollar or very low co-pay which they are guaranteed the remainder of their lives and are not subject to this new law if it passes.

Please use the power of the Internet to get this message out. Talk it up at the grassroots level. We have an election coming up in one year and nine months. And we have the ability to address and reverse the dangerous direction the Obama administration and its allies have begun and in the interim, we can make their lives miserable. Let's do this!

***********
My brother-in-law thinks that this circular is very scary considering his knowledge of how good the British National Health service is.

Does your brother in law think it scary because he knows some will actually believe the chain email when he knows it's a pile of bullcrap or does he think it's scary because he thinks it's true?.

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactchec...lder_than.html

I haven't asked him yet. Probably thinks it is scary. One of the hard line Republicans.

Clocker! That proves your theory.

[j2k4]

The American people would doubtless welcome a mechanism by which the high costs of medical care and the mind-numbed bureaucracy of the insurance industry could be throttled, but their lack of enthusiasm for a government-run solution is understandable.

NASA was mentioned recently as a paradigm of government oversight, yet it is riddled with inefficiency and has a safety record OSHA would surely frown on, if such were allowed (government doesn't really look after itself too well in the US, and, anecdotally, other countries aren't any different).

The fact is, NASA did land men on the Moon, it's efforts have lent hugely to medical breakthroughs and avenues of scientific endeavor.

I believe we can set that aside and throw a blanket over the rest of Uncle Sam's little projects to cover the accompanying shame.

Okay, so France is #1, eh?

By whose standards?

The WHO/UN?

Other annoying facts about France-

She's flipping broke, primarily due to her nanny-state tendencies, national health-care chief amongst them on the debit side, and, while she makes some nice military hardware, she doesn't care to deploy any of it in her own interests, preferring to leave that particular job to others.

She's also well down the road to civil difficulties manifesting along racial lines, and such other questions as "Oh, combien de temps est de notre semaine de travail est?"

As to the Canadian version of national health care, I know NikkiD had to wait, oh, like a year or something for a lousy arthroscopic exam.

I would really like to have some member of the board (after all, we are rife with members who call Canada, or the U.K., home - I know as well there are a few Gaullists in attendance) take our concerns as a head-on proposition and assuage our fears with a big, non-government-financed dose of the truth.

Btw:

Rat- you can't keep comparing the US to any other country, 'cuz we aren't just any other country, okay?

Trying to do it with numbers doesn't cut it, either.

We can't just up and be Canada, France, or the U.K., and you damn well know it.

[clocker]

The American people would doubtless welcome a mechanism by which the high costs of medical care and the mind-numbed bureaucracy of the insurance industry could be throttled, but their lack of enthusiasm for a government-run solution is understandable.

For every poll you have that shows a "lack of support" for a government run health system, I can find one that shows the exact opposite.
You're qualms do not automatically translate into wide spread agreement.

NASA was mentioned recently as a paradigm of government oversight, yet it is riddled with inefficiency and has a safety record OSHA would surely frown on, if such were allowed (government doesn't really look after itself too well in the US, and, anecdotally, other countries aren't any different).

The fact is, NASA did land men on the Moon, it's efforts have lent hugely to medical breakthroughs and avenues of scientific endeavor.

I believe we can set that aside and throw a blanket over the rest of Uncle Sam's little projects to cover the accompanying shame.

Fine.
We'll just conveniently ignore such "little projects" as the interstate highway system, the Hoover Dam, etc.
Oh yeah, and the armed forces.
Isn't the military the pride and joy of the conservative movement?

Okay, so France is #1, eh?

By whose standards?

The WHO/UN?

I wasn't aware that such data as life expectancy, live births, teen pregnancy et al was arguable, no matter the reporting organization.
The WHO gets it's data from the government, so either we're lying to them- to make ourselves look worse, apparently- or we are in as bad a shape as they say.

Other annoying facts about France-

She's flipping broke, primarily due to her nanny-state tendencies, national health-care chief amongst them on the debit side...
.

And our economy is doing any better?
We're broke, owe the Chinese everything we'll ever make for the next few generations and have crap health care, so it would seem that the French win out in that regard.

And...
Exactly why can't we be compared to any other country...even with numbers?
What makes the US so special that it's merits and faults are beyond examination?

[j2k4]

For every poll you have that shows a "lack of support" for a government run health system, I can find one that shows the exact opposite.
You're qualms do not automatically translate into wide spread agreement.

So we've got a 50/50 split in opinion?

Great - let the debate commence, rather than allowing this neophyte to run roughshod over process, not even having read his own fucking bill.

NASA was mentioned recently as a paradigm of government oversight, yet it is riddled with inefficiency and has a safety record OSHA would surely frown on, if such were allowed (government doesn't really look after itself too well in the US, and, anecdotally, other countries aren't any different).

The fact is, NASA did land men on the Moon, it's efforts have lent hugely to medical breakthroughs and avenues of scientific endeavor.

I believe we can set that aside and throw a blanket over the rest of Uncle Sam's little projects to cover the accompanying shame.

Fine.
We'll just conveniently ignore such "little projects" as the interstate highway system, the Hoover Dam, etc.
Oh yeah, and the armed forces.
Isn't the military the pride and joy of the conservative movement?

Oh, the Interstate highway system - do you want to do chapter-and-verse about waste?

In any case, big deal - the government can throw taxpayer money into a huge concrete-pouring project - impressive, that.

Hoover Dam?

Same thing...real hi-tech achievement.

By the way, neither of them qualifies as an on-going business operation, so why don't we talk about, oh, AMTRAK, or Fannie, or Freddie, instead?

As to the military, it is absolutely rife with waste, as well you know...sort of like the health care system.

Okay, so France is #1, eh?

By whose standards?

The WHO/UN?

I wasn't aware that such data as life expectancy, live births, teen pregnancy et al was arguable, no matter the reporting organization.
The WHO gets it's data from the government, so either we're lying to them- to make ourselves look worse, apparently- or we are in as bad a shape as they say.

Other annoying facts about France-

She's flipping broke, primarily due to her nanny-state tendencies, national health-care chief amongst them on the debit side...
.

And our economy is doing any better?
We're broke, owe the Chinese everything we'll ever make for the next few generations and have crap health care, so it would seem that the French win out in that regard.

So we should be sure to include the financial ruin of France on our to-do agenda?

You miss my point, which is that while the questionable upside of socialism is being praised here, we can look at the same table that cites France as #1 to note that the UK and Canada (both of whom possess - anecdotally - systems "far superior to that of the US") are far enough down that particular list as to be touted as under-achieving.

Our critics hammer costs as the root of our problem, and they are correct, so...since the problem with every government project/endeavor is incredible and endemic waste, how could anyone suppose they might do health-care with less expense?

So, to capsulize:

The problems with the US health care system are rooted in it's cost, yet you advocate the government assume control.

And...
Exactly why can't we be compared to any other country...even with numbers?
What makes the US so special that it's merits and faults are beyond examination?

None of your numbers mean a frigging thing until the US withdraws all of it's military personnel and hardware to US territory; not until we know how all those who bitch about US military spending feel about giving up their share of it's benefit; when they've absorbed the ramifications of providing their own protection.

Which plan I'm all for, by the way.

[clocker]

AFAIK, no one has advocated the government "assume control" over health care.
All the plans I've seen offer the option of a government run plan, NOT the exclusion of private insurance.

Should you prefer to feed the corporate maw of the same friendly for-profit insurance companies we have today you'll be free to do so.

So what's your problem?

No one is forcing you to change a damn thing, but people without options today will gain some.

[j2k4]

AFAIK, no one has advocated the government "assume control" over health care.
All the plans I've seen offer the option of a government run plan, NOT the exclusion of private insurance.

Should you prefer to feed the corporate maw of the same friendly for-profit insurance companies we have today you'll be free to do so.

So what's your problem?

No one is forcing you to change a damn thing, but people without options today will gain some.

No, I don't "prefer to feed the corporate maw of the same friendly for-profit insurance companies we have today", but I don't want to trade it for a GSE.

Those health-care options you see will be eliminated over time.

[clocker]

Why and sez who?

[j2k4]

Why and sez who?

History says.

[devilsadvocate]

Europe has a thriving private health insurance industry despite having social systems.

According to this they can even get "no claims" discounts on their premiums

http://www.privatehealth.co.uk/healt...pecial-offers/

We don't get that for auto insurance let alone health insurance.