What Created "time And Space"?

[marine_aart]

Originally posted by Spindulik+8 October 2003 - 17:57--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Spindulik @ 8 October 2003 - 17:57)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Lamsey@8 October 2003 - 11:48
I just don&#39;t see the point of this Big Bang stuff. It makes no sense to me - something out of nothing.

What&#39;s wrong with the idea that there is no limit to time or space? No beginning, no end.


IMO time and space just are there. They don&#39;t need to be justified.

Who said there has to be one big bang. The universe is so big, that maybe there are always is a big bang going on somewhere.. [/b][/quote]
well, I saw a video on school 2day, and it showed that the big bang theorys said, the big bang created the universe, and the universe is still growing, but after the explode, their might be an implode (scary ID, but luckily they think it wil last some billion years )

[noname12]

Originally posted by bigboab@8 October 2003 - 19:38
The human mind cannot comprehend infinity and never will.

There is an infinate creation... numbers, and there is infinate space.

[Biggles]

Scripture is not a science it is the text which supports faith. Scripture is not specific to any particular religion - all faiths have scripture.

Faith by defintition is believing that which cannot be known - if it can be known it is not faith but simply knowledge.

Evolution and the big bang are two quite seperate theories and are not co-dependants. I do not necessarily subscribe wholeheartedly to either but both are workable theories.

The fact that there are many different types of monkeys around today is not particularly relevant to the possibility that one or two specific types of monkeys may (or may not) have evolved into man like creatures some of which died out some of which were successful. I don&#39;t think anyone has suggested that chimps or howler monkeys or whatever evolved into man.

I have no problem with evolution being a theory and that it might be replaced with something completely different tomorrow on the discovery of new evidence or a theory with a better fit to the fossil eveidence. In this respect it is completely unlike a religion in that most religious adherents place as a central plank of their faith the fact that their revelation is full and complete and cannot be changed or altered.

I do accept that some people say they believe in evolution in much the same way as people say they believe in one of the many divine creation myths. I suspect that such people are simply saying I don&#39;t believe in the supernatural so something scientific will do. If the theory changes they will simply go along with the flow - again this is unlike a religion and I think would best be described as simple laziness.

I also have no difficulty with people obtaining a rich experience from religious beliefs - I just don&#39;t think trying to make the evidence fit literal translations of documents that were never intended to be taken literally is a profitable exercise.
That doesn&#39;t mean, as I said on some other thread, that I rule out the intelligent design theory of the universe. There is nothing fundamentally inherent in evolution that precludes an initial on switch being flicked.

I did not mean to be rude about your site I just didn&#39;t think it added anything to the debate.

[the_faceman]

Like some people have touched on already, i believe that humans will never learn enough about the universe (or whatever you and/or i exist in) to even begin to understand it. I also believe that the various Laws of Physics etc are most likely wrong to some extent, even when they work perfectly within the confines of our knowledge.

Our perceptions are based on instinct, knowledge gained by ourselves, and knowledge fed to us through literature, science and the media.

We quote pages on string theory etc, but there is nothing conclusive, and who&#39;s to say that results of experiments that hold within the parameters of the particular experiment apply to the whole spectrum of possibilities.

Basically i think that the only certainty is that with humankind&#39;s current level of knowledge, ANYTHING is possible, even the unbelieveable.

Even "out-there" possibilities like the universe is only a figment of your imaginination. i don&#39;t believe this to be true, but who&#39;s to say it&#39;s not. If a scientist proves it to you, you could have just made the scientist up in your own thought processes. Maybe you&#39;re the dream of another lifeform, our lifetime which seems long at about 80 years, could in fact be a small blip in the life of whatever is creating you in their dream. Or the comical idea at the end of Men In Black, that our universe is held within the bauble in the collar of a cat.

I&#39;m rambling a bit, but basically you can&#39;t trust yourself to rationalise anything. There is no way to prove anything to be true or not true, except in the realm of our own understanding, which probably doesn&#39;t encompass a tiny percentage of everything that exists/doesn&#39;t exist.

[bigboab]

Originally posted by the_faceman@8 October 2003 - 21:53
Like some people have touched on already, i believe that humans will never learn enough about the universe (or whatever you and/or i exist in) to even begin to understand it. I also believe that the various Laws of Physics etc are most likely wrong to some extent, even when they work perfectly within the confines of our knowledge.

Our perceptions are based on instinct, knowledge gained by ourselves, and knowledge fed to us through literature, science and the media.

We quote pages on string theory etc, but there is nothing conclusive, and who&#39;s to say that results of experiments that hold within the parameters of the particular experiment apply to the whole spectrum of possibilities.

Basically i think that the only certainty is that with humankind&#39;s current level of knowledge, ANYTHING is possible, even the unbelieveable.

Even "out-there" possibilities like the universe is only a figment of your imaginination. i don&#39;t believe this to be true, but who&#39;s to say it&#39;s not. If a scientist proves it to you, you could have just made the scientist up in your own thought processes. Maybe you&#39;re the dream of another lifeform, our lifetime which seems long at about 80 years, could in fact be a small blip in the life of whatever is creating you in their dream. Or the comical idea at the end of Men In Black, that our universe is held within the bauble in the collar of a cat.

I&#39;m rambling a bit, but basically you can&#39;t trust yourself to rationalise anything. There is no way to prove anything to be true or not true, except in the realm of our own understanding, which probably doesn&#39;t encompass a tiny percentage of everything that exists/doesn&#39;t exist.

[QUOTE] I agree. So do I.

[Wolfmight]

Well.. for one thing god probably doesnt really control this earth/solar system much.. or not at all. He/them is part of a higher race who have trillians and trillians of Universes floating around. And then, god&#39;s "Universe" is also just a tiny universe of an even higher race.
What if the forever loop just repeated all the way to the very lowest class? heh the race called: Atoms of Atoms of Atoms of Forever so on...

Heh, kinda gives me the idea that you can go fowards or backwards in races forever.

oh yea, the gods (higher race) above us probably have 1 trillian times the brainpower atleast. They probably study something waaay beyond infinity and time.
They talk to each other instantly with 100% accuracy.
They are probably mortal just like us.

[Spindulik]

Originally posted by Biggles@8 October 2003 - 16:05
Interesting link. I was taught at school that evolution was a best fit theory not a fact.

I fear Dr. Dino is setting up straw men in order to knock them down. I think the assertion that evolution is not supported by scripture says it all - one to avoid.

What?

Bacteria, virus, and micro-organisms evolve at alarming rates&#33;

Evolution is not supported by scripture, nor is it discounted by the scriptures either. As I said before the scriptures (or bible) made no mention of the American Indians, doesn&#39;t mean they didn&#39;t exist.

If you believe in GOD, then this is the way God planned it. Not too hard to accept. How else do you want God to prepare a world for man to live on? Any 7-Day Evangelists on this forum board? From what I gather, they believe that the earth is actually a few thousand years old, created in 7 days. That&#39;s it. Also, they have a reason or explanation for all questions including dinosaurs, carbon testing as a fraud, etc... I don&#39;t think they believe in "light years", because that violates their belief. The stars that you see at night takes hundreds of thousands of years for the light to travel from them to the earth. So actually, you are viewnig the history of the stars. The light from the sun takes about 9 minutes to reach the earth.

[«°¤§téålth§t®îk餰»]

Originally posted by Biggles@8 October 2003 - 21:48
Scripture is not a science it is the text which supports faith. Scripture is not specific to any particular religion - all faiths have scripture.

Faith by defintition is believing that which cannot be known - if it can be known it is not faith but simply knowledge.

Evolution and the big bang are two quite seperate theories and are not co-dependants. I do not necessarily subscribe wholeheartedly to either but both are workable theories.

The fact that there are many different types of monkeys around today is not particularly relevant to the possibility that one or two specific types of monkeys may (or may not) have evolved into man like creatures some of which died out some of which were successful. I don&#39;t think anyone has suggested that chimps or howler monkeys or whatever evolved into man.

I have no problem with evolution being a theory and that it might be replaced with something completely different tomorrow on the discovery of new evidence or a theory with a better fit to the fossil eveidence. In this respect it is completely unlike a religion in that most religious adherents place as a central plank of their faith the fact that their revelation is full and complete and cannot be changed or altered.

I do accept that some people say they believe in evolution in much the same way as people say they believe in one of the many divine creation myths. I suspect that such people are simply saying I don&#39;t believe in the supernatural so something scientific will do. If the theory changes they will simply go along with the flow - again this is unlike a religion and I think would best be described as simple laziness.

I also have no difficulty with people obtaining a rich experience from religious beliefs - I just don&#39;t think trying to make the evidence fit literal translations of documents that were never intended to be taken literally is a profitable exercise.
That doesn&#39;t mean, as I said on some other thread, that I rule out the intelligent design theory of the universe. There is nothing fundamentally inherent in evolution that precludes an initial on switch being flicked.

I did not mean to be rude about your site I just didn&#39;t think it added anything to the debate.

Science has started to catch up to many things in the Bible. Such as there being more than just 3 dimensions (Ephesians 3:18). Dinosaurs found in the book of Job, springs in the ocean etc.

The Bible is truth, it was written by real people with God guiding their hands (so to speak).

BTW, I never said the Bible was science I said that it has some answers to the theory of how we got here. More like truth and facts.

You can&#39;t give me a deffinate answer of how we got here either.

Were you there when the big bang occured?

Do you know anyone who was?

Did you see monkey&#39;s evolve?

If you tell me that there are variations of monkey&#39;s then I&#39;ll agree with you, but they are MONKEYS&#33;.

But that&#39;s not what evolution teaches, it teaches that monkeys turned to humans. "From the goo, to the zoo, to YOU&#33;"


Answer me these questions:

Can you prove there is no God and that He did not create everything including you and me?


Then you in turn will ask me:

Can you prove that there was no big bang?


I&#39;ll probably asnwer the SAME AS YOU, "No I can&#39;t prove it".


SO they both need to be BELIEVED, it takes faith to believe in evolution and it takes faith to believe there is a God.

Both = Religion

Go back and take a look at that site I gave earlier. Watch at least one of his videos. You&#39;ll see what I&#39;m saying.

[billyfridge]

Originally posted by bigboab@8 October 2003 - 19:38
The human mind cannot comprehend infinity and never will.

I agree there are mysteries we will never explain, thoughts, dey ja vous, women
moderators, to name but a few

[Biggles]

I like "from goo to zoo to you" - never seen that before - most apt.

You are starting with an a&#39; priori assumption in that you believe a particular set of scriptures were inspired by God - as opposed to any other religions&#39; scriptures not being inspired by God presumably.

From my point of view all scriptures contain a mixture of history, moral philosophy and observation of the human condition. They are valuable on many respects and are not without some merit. I would not for one moment say they were bunk but they do major on symbolism rather than scientific accuracy - this is no bad thing.

I am not an apologist for evolution I merely think it is a better fit than a creation myth (no matter how much fun these are - and I particularly like the Egyptian one which throws masturbation into a whole new light ). As to the big bang, well I am not sure about that one. I rather think it is turtles all the way down and as someone said above, infinity is a tricky thing for a brain to handle.

I have no faith in evolution - it makes not one jot of difference to my life if it is right or wrong - it is merely an interesting theory nothing more nothing less. It does not require a leap of faith because I am happy to entertain more than one theory at a time. I rather suspect if you went to your Church (assuming you are a Church goer) and said "I am entertaining more than one religion at the moment and intend to attend the Mosque on Fridays" you may find the Pastor would quickly find time in his busy schedule to "council" you. Religions tend to be mutally exclusive although I do accept New Age ideas are blending things like Wicca and Bhuddism and Christianity, which is rather nice and ecumenical (as Father Jack would say).

Neither of us can prove that any of the theories or beliefs we subscribe to are 100% right. We each must go with the weight of evidence we find.

Incidentaly, I do not think religion and evolution are mutually exclusive. There are many devout people comfortable with this and do not find any inherent contradiction and, although not my position, neither do I.

On the other hand, there are those on the religious side of the equation that believe literally that the world is only 6000 years old and that dinosaur bones were placed on earth by malign forces to fool the faithful. One does not have to go back far to find similar people giving Coperincus a hard time. I suspect the problem is not the science but simply that they struggle with the infinity thing more than most.

Like I said, I am not sure the site you refer to adds much to any side of the argument. It is probably better suited to those who are looking for some comfort that a more literal translation of the texts they hold dear is viable. To which I say "and why not".