Atheists and christmas

[ugk4life]

tl;dr version:

Your definition of what an atheist is is lacking and a bit off, what you're describing wrt not believing because there's no proof sounds more like agnosticism*. Your idea of what a religion is isn't entirely on target either.

And on a personal note, I consider most people who fancy themselves Atheists, especially on the internet, to be morons.

You really shouldn't ask for an explanation if you aren't able to read all the big words.

EDit:

Going 'there is no God', as a 'strong' () atheist would is as much an expression of a belief system as saying the opposite. And it really takes just one person to start a religion, while there's lots of them with the same beliefs, discussing those same beliefs on the internet, getting organised (and borrowing the same traditions, now), in this case.

*Some people, mainly in the atheist department, would say that you can be both religious and agnostic, or atheist and agnostic, but I disagree, as I consider agnosticism the absence of belief, in this instance, whereas the other two aren't.

good thing i'm not atheist, i guess. and no need for simplification. just sounded like u were talking out of your ass. in any case, i did not define religion, i let websters do it for me. nice try professor snee, p.h.d.

[ugk4life]

A Christian explaining his beliefs makes a coherent argument. A Christian trying to explain why Islam, Buddhism or Atheism is incorrect usually makes a fool of himself. Part of it being because he usually couldn't do so without referring to his own religion as the proof. The same would apply to an Atheist.

how would that apply to an atheiest? he has no religion?

[bigboab]

A Christian explaining his beliefs makes a coherent argument. A Christian trying to explain why Islam, Buddhism or Atheism is incorrect usually makes a fool of himself. Part of it being because he usually couldn't do so without referring to his own religion as the proof. The same would apply to an Atheist.

how would that apply to an atheiest? he has no religion?

Religion does not just pertain to deities. I thought that we covered all this earlier.

[Snee]

Snee

I find your argument interesting, however in my personal view religion would require worship of some manner. Lacking an object of worship, be it a spiritual deity or an actual object like the sun or nature, in my mind Atheist gathering to discuss their non belief would be more akin to a book club or a political party.

First of all, I don't really consider there to be a difference between the statements 'I don't believe in God' and 'I believe there isn't a God', so I'd not call atheism in and of itself non-belief.

I consider the concept of a God or other item of religious significance a point of reference towards which people aim certain beliefs, if that makes sense.

As for worship, that's a trickier one. Does overly trusting what current science has uncovered count as worship?

I'll concede that atheists I've run into haven't always seemed to have replaced a deity with science, but there's always a certain measure of faith in a kind of pseudo-logic, ie: 'There is no God because no one has proven it. And if it isn't proven, it isn't real, and besides, the burden of proof is on you, since you made the positive statement. And there's no empirical data to suggest there's a God' and so forth, totally diregarding things like the fact that some people have been claiming they've talked to God (second hand empirical data, albeit unreliable, and nothing I personally put much stock in), or that cultures everywhere have come up with the concept, seemingly independently, at times (might be a Jungian archetype, I suppose), or that calculating the probability of the existance an extremely non-specific beard in the sky is a whole other matter than, say, calculating the probability of there being a santa (for whom we have a highly specific description, and even a location to start looking).

Reasoning like that, and rejecting or ignoring anything not fitting into one's worldview is a downright fundamentalist religious trait.

Do you only consider most Atheist that discuss their views online morons or do you extend the label to people that believe in a God that push their beliefs?

Basically it's to do with a certain mode of reasoning as well as taking offense over that others believe in something they don't think exists. I've got the same quarrel with either side on that account, really, the caring so much about what the other side thinks that it becomes an insult that the belief even exists. People not being logical and/or starting arguments over something that really doesn't matter since they can't possibly know whether it's there, while it being so inconsequential rubs me the wrong way.

Yon evangelical internet-atheists tend to deliver some right humdingers by way of leaps of logic, though, especially with regards to 'the burden of proof', which has gotten really popular as of late, despite claiming to be the more enlightened and scientifically minded.

I find that most people that try to debate the merits of a belief system other than their own tend to make bad arguments because they don't understand the other side or just lack enough knowledge to not make false assumptions.
A Christian explaining his beliefs makes a coherent argument. A Christian trying to explain why Islam, Buddhism or Atheism is incorrect usually makes a fool of himself. Part of it being because he usually couldn't do so without referring to his own religion as the proof. The same would apply to an Atheist.

True, and I won't argue the point, other than to say a lot of the self-proclaimed atheist people I've had the displeasure of running into seem to have a focus on a specific religion, making certain claims about what religion is that are very much tied to christianity, in particular.

[Snee]

tl;dr version:

Your definition of what an atheist is is lacking and a bit off, what you're describing wrt not believing because there's no proof sounds more like agnosticism*. Your idea of what a religion is isn't entirely on target either.

And on a personal note, I consider most people who fancy themselves Atheists, especially on the internet, to be morons.

You really shouldn't ask for an explanation if you aren't able to read all the big words.

EDit:

Going 'there is no God', as a 'strong' () atheist would is as much an expression of a belief system as saying the opposite. And it really takes just one person to start a religion, while there's lots of them with the same beliefs, discussing those same beliefs on the internet, getting organised (and borrowing the same traditions, now), in this case.

*Some people, mainly in the atheist department, would say that you can be both religious and agnostic, or atheist and agnostic, but I disagree, as I consider agnosticism the absence of belief, in this instance, whereas the other two aren't.

good thing i'm not atheist, i guess. and no need for simplification. just sounded like u were talking out of your ass. in any case, i did not define religion, i let websters do it for me. nice try professor snee, p.h.d.

Either Webster's definition is incomplete, or you didn't read all of it, then, captain tard.

[bigboab]

Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, 1971:
Religion: 1. the personal commitment to and serving of God or a god with worshipful devotion, conduct in accord with divine commands esp. as found in accepted sacred writings or declared by authoritative teachers, a way of life recognized as incumbent on true believers and typically the relating of oneself to an organized body of believers,

2. the state of a religious,

3a. one of the systems of religious faith and worship, 3b. the body of institutionalized expressions of sacred beliefs, observances and social practices found within a given cultural context,

4. the profession or practice of religious beliefs,

5. archaic, scrupulous conformity,

6a. a personal awareness or conviction of the existence of a supreme being or of supernatural powers or influences controlling one’s own, humanity’s, or all nature’s destiny,

7a. a cause, principle, system of tenets held with ardor, devotion, conscientiousness and faith, a value held to be of supreme importance,
7b. a quality, condition, custom, or thing inspiring zealous devotion, conscientious maintenance, and cherishing.

[Snee]

Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, 1971:
Religion: 1. the personal commitment to and serving of God or a god with worshipful devotion, conduct in accord with divine commands esp. as found in accepted sacred writings or declared by authoritative teachers, a way of life recognized as incumbent on true believers and typically the relating of oneself to an organized body of believers,

2. the state of a religious,

3a. one of the systems of religious faith and worship, 3b. the body of institutionalized expressions of sacred beliefs, observances and social practices found within a given cultural context,

4. the profession or practice of religious beliefs,

5. archaic, scrupulous conformity,

6a. a personal awareness or conviction of the existence of a supreme being or of supernatural powers or influences controlling one’s own, humanity’s, or all nature’s destiny,

7a. a cause, principle, system of tenets held with ardor, devotion, conscientiousness and faith, a value held to be of supreme importance,
7b. a quality, condition, custom, or thing inspiring zealous devotion, conscientious maintenance, and cherishing.

I'm going with 'didn't read all of it', then.

[ugk4life]

Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, 1971:
Religion: 1. the personal commitment to and serving of God or a god with worshipful devotion, conduct in accord with divine commands esp. as found in accepted sacred writings or declared by authoritative teachers, a way of life recognized as incumbent on true believers and typically the relating of oneself to an organized body of believers,

2. the state of a religious,

3a. one of the systems of religious faith and worship, 3b. the body of institutionalized expressions of sacred beliefs, observances and social practices found within a given cultural context,

4. the profession or practice of religious beliefs,

5. archaic, scrupulous conformity,

6a. a personal awareness or conviction of the existence of a supreme being or of supernatural powers or influences controlling one’s own, humanity’s, or all nature’s destiny,

7a. a cause, principle, system of tenets held with ardor, devotion, conscientiousness and faith, a value held to be of supreme importance,
7b. a quality, condition, custom, or thing inspiring zealous devotion, conscientious maintenance, and cherishing.

I'm going with 'didn't read all of it', then.

yeah, u sure didn't read all of it b/c atheism does fit anything u highlighted, especially if u read the rest of the description. if atheism is a religion i guess football in texas is religion too. nice try dr. snee, maybe next time!

[devilsadvocate]

As for worship, that's a trickier one. Does overly trusting what current science has uncovered count as worship?

I guess in certain cases the argument could be made for that one. On the other hand a true follower of science would be one that constantly challenges set theory. Scientists get their rocks of discovering new reality. Could you imagine the hard on a scientist would get if he could prove the existence of God. Scientists challenge evolution. The difference is that they do so in a scientific manner, which would preclude religious theory based on "what is written". This is where so many people find offense.



My personal experience of the drive to class Atheism as religion more often than not seems to be a desire to offend Atheists. I admit I don't know that many but my experience of Atheists is that they just go through their day not believing and not trying to convince others to join them. I've only found out that these people have no religion when they have made a simple response to someone evangelizing them. Once the non belief was out then the ensuing "conversation" was led by the believers unwillingness to just accept a "leave me alone". I probably know a lot of non believers, I just don't know they are. Not once in my life has an Atheist come up to me to tell me there is no God.

The Internet may be a different matter. It's a place where for the most part one can safely speak with anonymity so not risk of real life harassment. Virtual harassment may occur, but you can end that by not visiting that site. The online debates I have wandered into haven't really been about is there or isn't there a God. They have been about someone being pissed off because a certain group of theocratic zealots are trying to force their religious dogma onto them. Examples would be bible classes or mandatory prayer in schools. Teaching creationism in science classes or wanting laws denying Homosexuals (insert anything here) because the bible says homosexuality is a sin. The list goes on. Now the examples I gave were Christian V Atheist based. This is because in my part of the world that's the experience. I'm pretty sure if I lived in a hardcore Islamic country there would be even less tolerance.

[Snee]

I'm going with 'didn't read all of it', then.

yeah, u sure didn't read all of it b/c atheism does fit anything u highlighted, especially if u read the rest of the description. if atheism is a religion i guess football in texas is religion too. nice try dr. snee, maybe next time!

Yeah, 'cept I didn't highlight that.

And for fuck's sake, those a's, b's, and c's, and so forth are alternative definitions. It's kind of how a dictionary works.