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That does beg the question, though, Skweeky...Originally posted by Skweeky@31 October 2003 - 22:08
no no no
MARXISM is the essence of SOCIALISM
The essence of COMMUNISM is FASCISM....
Communism is not the same thing as marxism
Why would Marx And Engels put their names to The Communist Manifesto?
That's it...I'm out of hereOriginally posted by mrcall1969+31 October 2003 - 22:14--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mrcall1969 @ 31 October 2003 - 22:14)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by noname12@31 October 2003 - 23:12
Originally posted by mrcall1969@31 October 2003 - 22:09
<!--QuoteBegin-noname12@31 October 2003 - 23:06
I think I took the wrong side in this argument
I do not see what we are arguing now?
The essence of communism is socialism. socialism is the essence of a political system created 1400 years ago. both have been distorted in a way.
Trotski and Lenin saw the advantages, they had a mathmatical mind, money, resources = strength and power (from what I have read) Stalin pops in makes it pretty much a Police state and ruins every thing.
Hmmmm Seems strange to have a mad, despot dictator for a sig then...
Hes the only Soviet figure I could find at the time
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Originally posted by noname12+31 October 2003 - 23:16--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (noname12 @ 31 October 2003 - 23:16)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Originally posted by mrcall1969@31 October 2003 - 22:14
Originally posted by noname12@31 October 2003 - 23:12
Originally posted by mrcall1969@31 October 2003 - 22:09
<!--QuoteBegin-noname12@31 October 2003 - 23:06
I think I took the wrong side in this argument
I do not see what we are arguing now?
The essence of communism is socialism. socialism is the essence of a political system created 1400 years ago. both have been distorted in a way.
Trotski and Lenin saw the advantages, they had a mathmatical mind, money, resources = strength and power (from what I have read) Stalin pops in makes it pretty much a Police state and ruins every thing.
Hmmmm Seems strange to have a mad, despot dictator for a sig then...
Hes the only Soviet figure I could find at the time
That's it...I'm out of here
It's not about "tastes", correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to have liking/interest for Soviet related things, so, I am assuming that you belive in the Communist/Soviet ideal.
The trouble is your images and arguements are contradictory.
Manker's web totty
Yes...I also think this discussion is rather useless. You seem to think that what is called marxism and what is called communism are the same thing. They are not. Maybe we can continue this discussion as soon as you realize that...
And Stalin the only communist figure? I cannot believe there are no pictures of people like Trotsky, Lenin, Che Guevara.....
But thank you for this debate
Looking for loopholes
The big problem, as I see it, is the concept, which Trotsky exemplified, that change can only be achieved through revolution. As someone pointed out a long time ago, "the trouble with revolutions is that the people who like shooting people get to the top".
Organic change in which people vote with their feet for a more equitable system is I guess what Skweeky is refering to as Socialism. I have some sympathy with this position.
Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum
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Wasn't it Troksky (Chemical Chance, remember him) who called for global revolution? A world in constant revoultion? This, I believe, was the ideological schism. And also his undoing?
Broken
Every country that has tried to implement "Communist" state has ended up with "State Capitalism", hence Skweeky claiming that Communism is related to Fascism.
The implementation of Communism is based on Socialist/Marxist principles, which is why Marx put his name to the manifesto....
However human nature is the same the world over, the people that rise to the top (the leaders) are in general those that are prepared to go that extra mile to get into power (and not get caught)...this is not the same as those that are best suited to lead.
Once in power of a "Communist" state, a "Leader" is in the perfect situation to stay there, as it is assumed that he is the best fitted in the basic principle and as such is given the power of the state... this power is then used to make sure no one will "Take Over".
In essence they have the same power, and use the same methodology as someone that is supposed to be on the opposite side of the fence... ie a Fascist Dictator.
As i have said many times....extremism is bad, no matter where it comes from.
An It Harm None, Do What You Will
Ladies and Gentleman.
I spoke to a friend of mine who is a expert in this field and I must say I am rather wrong in this case.
Communism - Everything is state run, everything is given out equally to all, there is no room to fall back but no room to move forward.
Socialism - The bulk is state run but there is room for free enterprise, you can move forward but no one falls behind.
Islamic Politics - Socialism but with a religious emphasis.
Not that much difference.
Soviet Union Shall neither Crush you or Inflate you. You shall give into the Union or be paid equally regardless.
The end.
Thank you.
Carl Marx - Thinker, came up the the communist Idea, so he is the father. Student of Marx said that Communism is not Implementable, Socialism is a better route.
Theories of Marx being a Fraud released, accusations of him trying to further jewish economic beliefs rose.
Trotski - Fellow communist, His ideals was that communism had to be introduced in steps, first socialism then Communism. When communism gained more power he was ousted and he fled to America.
Lenin - Shared the idea's of Trotski but could not wait and pushed for the Communist state to be implimented as he saw it as the natural Evolution of polotics.
Broken
As i said... there has never been a successful implementation of a Communist State, in the manner it is supposed to exist.
The Soviet Union lost the last claim to being a "Socialist" state in 1929, with the desolution of the "Troika" and at the same time making Trade Unions illegal.
In the 1930's, it in essence re-introduced Slave Labour (impossible in any type of Socialist State) as Stalins reign of terror really took off....
An It Harm None, Do What You Will
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