Public Employee Unions Must Be Crushed !

[devilsadvocate]

Nearly everything he posts is almost verbatim of any generic talk radio host or blogger on any given day. I don't have an issue with that, but he does often lack the ability or will to explain the thinking behind his statements.
I still haven't made up my mind about him. Is he what we see or is he a parody?

You just can't imagine someone having a different opinion than you, can you?

I would say that some of my opinions are quite different from those of talk radio--

1. I don't like military spending. I hate all wars. I think most of the wars we've been in since the Civil War was a mistake. I wish we had never gotten involved in World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, and all of the various Persian Gulf Wars, including Iraq and Afghanistan. Think how much money we have wasted and how many lives we have lost on all of these wars? I should start a new thread about how stupid it was to ever get involved in any of these wars.

2. I no longer support Israel. We should cut them loose, and cut our losses, and maybe it would make the Islamic world a little bit less likely to continue attacking us.

3. I don't support any entitlement programs. They should all come to an end.

4. I don't support free trade. It should come to an end. We should use tariffs to stop China and various other nations from dumping their cheaply made, crappy products onto our markets and destroying our manufacturing base.

5. I am not religious.

And there are other issues, but those are just a few positions that you are unlikely to hear on talk radio.

I have no problem with differing views, you and I share more common views than you realize. I can explain my viewpoints.

BTW. I didn't say you have no different opinions from talk radio.


BTW. 2 I notice your lack of condemnation about the tea party hecklers, I'll help you out

For conservatives, freedom of speech and freedom of the press only apply to the right wing media. They don't want any other views expressed. They really should stop using the "constitutionalists" (yes this is a ridiculous use of the word) label.

[clocker]

1. I don't like military spending. I hate all wars.We're doing well so far... I think most of the wars we've been in since the Civil War was a mistake. I wish we had never gotten involved in World War I, World War II,...and now we go off the rails.How do avoid getting into war after being attacked at Pearl Harbor? We stand by as our allies are overrun by a lunatic? Korea, Vietnam, and all of the various Persian Gulf Wars, including Iraq and Afghanistan. Think how much money we have wasted and how many lives we have lost on all of these wars? I should start a new thread about how stupid it was to ever get involved in any of these wars.
If you'd care to discuss the two World Wars, please do.[/color]

2. I no longer support Israel. Really? When you did support Israel, exactly what did you do for them? Is Israel likely to notice that you've withdrawn your patronage? We should cut them loose, and cut our losses, and maybe it would make the Islamic world a little bit less likely to continue attacking us.Haven't really noticed a whole lot of "continuous attacking" going on. In fact, since 9/11, I'd guess there are more dead of gun violence than any terrorist act within our borders.

3. I don't support any entitlement programs. They should all come to an end.
Any particular reason or are you just trying to Galt-trip us?

4. I don't support free trade. It should come to an end. We should use tariffs to stop China and various other nations from dumping their cheaply made, crappy products onto our markets and destroying our manufacturing base.
Well, now see, you've run into a problem. If you want to reestablish American manufacturing, you're going to need an educated workforce and according to your Third Commandment: "I don't support any entitlement programs", you don't support educating them either. Pretty sure the Constitution doesn't say anything about having to attend school, does it?
Your workforce is going to be pretty unhealthy as well, expect productivity to be a bitch.

5. I am not religious.

You should at least have an altar for the people who bought you a car and are putting you through college.
Both of which are "entitlements", BTW.

[999969999]

1. I don't like military spending. I hate all wars.We're doing well so far... Agreed I think most of the wars we've been in since the Civil War was a mistake. I wish we had never gotten involved in World War I, World War II,...and now we go off the rails.How do avoid getting into war after being attacked at Pearl Harbor?

One of my history teachers had some rather controversial ideas, and he said that if you just stand back and think about it, why would Japan-- a tiny island nation-- attack a huge country like the United States? It just doesn't make sense. There was no way they could win a war against us. They weren't trying to take over Hawaii. They were provoked into that attack to try to get the general public in the U.S. to get angry enough to go to war. If we hadn't provoked them, they probably would have never attacked Pearl Harbor. What do you think about that?

We stand by as our allies are overrun by a lunatic?

I throw this question out to any Europeans who might be reading this thread... Did you really need our help to win the war against Germany? Wouldn't you have won the war on your own eventually?

And now back to Clocker, think of the American lives we could have saved by not getting involved in that war! And think of how much better our country would have been if we had never become involved in world politics, and just kept to ourselves. We wouldn't have military bases all over the world, making people hate us. 9-11 would have never happened.

Korea, Vietnam, and all of the various Persian Gulf Wars, including Iraq and Afghanistan. Think how much money we have wasted and how many lives we have lost on all of these wars? I should start a new thread about how stupid it was to ever get involved in any of these wars.
If you'd care to discuss the two World Wars, please do.[/color]

2. I no longer support Israel. Really? When you did support Israel, exactly what did you do for them? Is Israel likely to notice that you've withdrawn your patronage?

A poor choice of words on my part. I meant that I wish the United States would stop giving financial aid and military aid to Israel, and wash our hands of the situation over there. It was a mistake and it should be reversed. It one of the things that terrorists often use as a reason to attack us. That and our military presence in the middle east, which should also come to an end.

We should cut them loose, and cut our losses, and maybe it would make the Islamic world a little bit less likely to continue attacking us.Haven't really noticed a whole lot of "continuous attacking" going on. In fact, since 9/11, I'd guess there are more dead of gun violence than any terrorist act within our borders.

True, but there have been some, such as the attack at Fort Hood.

3. I don't support any entitlement programs. They should all come to an end.
Any particular reason or are you just trying to Galt-trip us?

I don't know what that means.

4. I don't support free trade. It should come to an end. We should use tariffs to stop China and various other nations from dumping their cheaply made, crappy products onto our markets and destroying our manufacturing base.
Well, now see, you've run into a problem. If you want to reestablish American manufacturing, you're going to need an educated workforce and according to your Third Commandment: "I don't support any entitlement programs", you don't support educating them either. Pretty sure the Constitution doesn't say anything about having to attend school, does it?
Your workforce is going to be pretty unhealthy as well, expect productivity to be a bitch.

I think education should be privatized as much as possible through vouchers, so that public schools would have to compete with private schools. I think that would make us more competitive in the long run.

As for health care, one of the reasons we are not as competitive in the workforce anymore is because of companies having to provide health care for their employees. There are things that could be done to make health insurance more affordable-- such has having a $5000 deductible per year, so people aren't running to the doctor when they get the sniffles, and eventually it might drive the cost of health care back down to reasonable levels.


5. I am not religious.

You should at least have an altar for the people who bought you a car and are putting you through college.
Both of which are "entitlements", BTW.

It's amazing how you think it is so odd for a wealthy family to pay for grandchildren's educations, cars, etc. I am not asking you or taxpayers to pay for it-- such as getting financial aid from the U.S. Dept. of Education. In fact, I didn't even ask them to pay for it. I had no intention of even going to college, but they are insisting on it. They did the same thing for my older brothers and sisters, and now they're doing it for me. And like my Dad said, I would be fool to turn it down.

[devilsadvocate]

It's amazing how you think it is so odd for a wealthy family to pay for grandchildren's educations, cars, etc. I am not asking you or taxpayers to pay for it-- such as getting financial aid from the U.S. Dept. of Education. In fact, I didn't even ask them to pay for it. I had no intention of even going to college, but they are insisting on it. They did the same thing for my older brothers and sisters, and now they're doing it for me. And like my Dad said, I would be fool to turn it down.

Are they holding a gun to your head?

You are missing the point. It's not that anyone objects to your fortunate circumstances, it's that you enjoy them while labeling everyone else basically as welfare queens.
This isn't your only option. You could say thanks, but no thanks and figure out a way to pay for it yourself. At least you'd be putting your money where your mouth is.

[devilsadvocate]

I think education should be privatized as much as possible through vouchers, so that public schools would have to compete with private schools. I think that would make us more competitive in the long run.

Is part of your theory a rule that private schools have to accept pupils by the same rules as public schools? Part of the reason private schools appear to have better results is that they get to pick which students they accept.

As for health care, one of the reasons we are not as competitive in the workforce anymore is because of companies having to provide health care for their employees. There are things that could be done to make health insurance more affordable-- such has having a $5000 deductible per year, so people aren't running to the doctor when they get the sniffles, and eventually it might drive the cost of health care back down to reasonable levels..

What do you think the employer cost in , let's say the UK, that has zero patient co-pay?

BTW How much do you think insurance premiums costs to begin with? How many insurance plans have free doctor visits? Do you think people "with the sniffles" Don't have to pay anything? Would a single payer system Take that burden off employers?

[999969999]

It's amazing how you think it is so odd for a wealthy family to pay for grandchildren's educations, cars, etc. I am not asking you or taxpayers to pay for it-- such as getting financial aid from the U.S. Dept. of Education. In fact, I didn't even ask them to pay for it. I had no intention of even going to college, but they are insisting on it. They did the same thing for my older brothers and sisters, and now they're doing it for me. And like my Dad said, I would be fool to turn it down.

Are they holding a gun to your head?

My point exactly. It is voluntary on their part and on mine. It's not like I am asking taxpayers-- who must pay their taxes involuntarily or face severe consequences-- to pay for my education (such as Pell Grants, etc.) and transportation, etc.

I know you are a big fan of taxes, but if you knew your taxes were going to support me, would you like them as much as you do now? Well, imagine how I feel having to pay taxes for your Social Security and Medicare? Those programs will be long gone by the time I get old enough to benefit from them.


You are missing the point. It's not that anyone objects to your fortunate circumstances, it's that you enjoy them while labeling everyone else basically as welfare queens.

What a family decides to do with its money is up to them to decide. Taxpayers don't get to decide where their tax money goes after they pay it. There is a difference between the two situations. And you should see these people at the D.E.S. office-- pregnant women with 6 stairstep children pushing a baby carriage with an infant! It's unsustainable!

This isn't your only option. You could say thanks, but no thanks and figure out a way to pay for it yourself.

Who would do something like that? Not only would it be insulting to my grandparents, but it would be a stupid thing to do. My family is too wealthy for me to qualify for most financial aid programs from the government. My grades and scores are just a bit too low for me to qualify for private scholarships (what can I say? I didn't take high school as seriously as I should have). And there is no way I would even consider taking out a loan to pay for education. So my only other choice would be to work a full time job just to pay for my classes and then I wouldn't have enough time to study and end up failing all of my classes. So of course I'm going to let them pay for it. It does come with a few strings attached-- I have to attend the University of Oregon because they live in Eugene, Oregon, and they want me to live in the guest house, so they get to see me on a regular basis. Oh and they also want to major in something useful-- Accounting. As for the free car, who would turn down a free car? This will be my second car, one for when I'm in Eagar, and one for when I'm in Oregon. That way they don't have to drive me anywhere.


At least you'd be putting your money where your mouth is.

...

[999969999]

I think education should be privatized as much as possible through vouchers, so that public schools would have to compete with private schools. I think that would make us more competitive in the long run.

Is part of your theory a rule that private schools have to accept pupils by the same rules as public schools? Part of the reason private schools appear to have better results is that they get to pick which students they accept.

As for health care, one of the reasons we are not as competitive in the workforce anymore is because of companies having to provide health care for their employees. There are things that could be done to make health insurance more affordable-- such has having a $5000 deductible per year, so people aren't running to the doctor when they get the sniffles, and eventually it might drive the cost of health care back down to reasonable levels..

What do you think the employer cost in , let's say the UK, that has zero patient co-pay?

I've heard it's not working too well for them.

BTW How much do you think insurance premiums costs to begin with?

It depends on age, health conditions, and location.


How many insurance plans have free doctor visits?

None, except some of the government ones like Medicaid.

Do you think people "with the sniffles" Don't have to pay anything?

They still might have a relatively small co-pay, but if they had to pay the full cost of the doctor's visit, I'll bet they wouldn't run to the doctor every time they caught a cold.


Would a single payer system Take that burden off employers?

It put the burden on everyone, just like Medicare, which is almost bankrupt.

[999969999]

It looks like the artful dodging Democrats may have been outsmarted by the Republicans afterall, and the vote is moving forward to crush the public employee unions in Wisconsin.

If this works, the union control over the public sector will eventually come crashing down.

One I noticed in this thread is that no one wanted to deal with the fact that when it comes down to CHOICE-- the freedom to choose whether to belong to organized crime, er I mean a union, or not to belong to a union, liberals are against CHOICE.

The new law will let people decide whether to belong to a union or not, and whether or not to pay their union dues rather than having the union dues come out of their paychecks. CHOICE! What an evil thing!

[devilsadvocate]

Are you happy with the way the republicans behaved? I don't see the will of the people being carried out here, I see dictatorship.

Your original post was all about this being a fiscal necessity, Seems it had nothing to do with balancing the budget.

[mjmacky]

It never had anything to do with budget balancing. The budget thing was a political face, as is common with all sly deals. Basically republicans will be able to take a big hit against democratic campaigning, while leaving theirs intact. It's a direct party assault to push elections their way in the future since $$ = elected.

The 969 guy has basically admitted he's an idiot, and his entire conversation is based on unsubstantiated talking points. Why's everyone still entertaining the notion that he even has a point to debate?