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Thread: Trump calls it quits

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by bigboab View Post
    Do anti communists/socialists take out insurance on their property? Are they happy to accept other insurance payers collectively paying for their loss? If the private insurance firms did not make vast profits then our insurance premiums would cost less. I may just have the wrong mindset, in my dotage, to fathom this contradiction out.
    Hah.

    I am a contradiction-fathomer from way back.

    The trick is to do it 24/7, and not just when you feel like it, or must, due to circumstances.

    If you can't do that, try it during your afternoon nap, Bob - warn Missus Bob that you will likely snore a bit more loudly as a consequence.
    My afternoon nap is slipping into 24/7. Still can't fathom why the right accepts community insurance.
    The best way to keep a secret:- Tell everyone not to tell anyone.

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigboab View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post

    Hah.

    I am a contradiction-fathomer from way back.

    The trick is to do it 24/7, and not just when you feel like it, or must, due to circumstances.

    If you can't do that, try it during your afternoon nap, Bob - warn Missus Bob that you will likely snore a bit more loudly as a consequence.
    My afternoon nap is slipping into 24/7. Still can't fathom why the right accepts community insurance.
    The fact is that costs have lost any sort of association with reality.

    Third-party payer is the bugaboo - how ironic, eh?
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    The fact is that costs have lost any sort of association with reality.
    Cost and reality have a tenuous association at best...in any consumer transaction (see: diamonds).

    America's highest paid CEO runs United Health Group...Stephen Hemsley made 102 MILLION FREAKIN DOLLARS!!! last year (source= Forbes)...so any discussion about health care cost and reality is already warped beyond recognition.
    "I am the one who knocks."- Heisenberg

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by clocker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post
    The fact is that costs have lost any sort of association with reality.
    Cost and reality have a tenuous association at best...in any consumer transaction (see: diamonds).

    America's highest paid CEO runs United Health Group...Stephen Hemsley made 102 MILLION FREAKIN DOLLARS!!! last year (source= Forbes)...so any discussion about health care cost and reality is already warped beyond recognition.
    I know how to deal with Mr. Hemsley:

    PUT HIM OUT OF BUSINESS!

    Eliminate ALL third-party payer programs, including Medicaid/Medicare.

    Scratch start - whattaya say?

    Who's your Radical, baby?


    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #15
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    Eliminate Medicare/Medicaid and replace them with what, exactly?
    Medicare has administrative costs three times lower than private insurance plans, so what's the problem?
    Last edited by clocker; 05-28-2011 at 02:57 PM.
    "I am the one who knocks."- Heisenberg

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by clocker View Post
    Eliminate Medicare/Medicaid and replace them with what, exactly?
    Replace them with - here's a novel idea - cash!

    The "problem" with medicare is the same as with private insurance - neither has a fucking conscience.
    Last edited by j2k4; 05-28-2011 at 03:25 PM.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post

    Replace them with - here's a novel idea - cash!
    I'd like to ask you non ideological questions, but I need to borrow from ideological arguments to ask the question.

    I'm not going to question the argument that the USA has the best, or some might say worst, healthcare because the conclusion depends on what measurement is used.

    It has been suggested that the USA has the most advanced healthcare in the world. The USA has produced a heck of a lot of technological and medical advancements. Certainly the rate of advancement has been phenomenal. While the private sector has played a big role in this, government funding has been very significant.

    To the questions.

    If it were left entirely to the private sector, the free market, and government funding wasn't part of the equation would we have the tech and medicinal advancements we have today?

    Without third party insurance (private or government) picking up some of the tab, we had a $50k tab a while back and we had insurance, would there be enough patients able to afford treatment thus making the advancements in medicine profitable enough for the market to invest?

    What would you do with those that really can't afford to see the doctor? If you answer the emergency room, how would you pay for it and how do you reconcile that with your pay cash ideal?


    My point being, and I really want to keep ideology out of it, is that while paying cash may force doctors to charge less, I feel the revenue loss could hinder the incentive for advancement.
    When I was a kid I was told "We do these things not because they're easy, but because they're hard"

    Now all I hear is " I won't do anything unless there's something in it for me"

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post

    Replace them with - here's a novel idea - cash!
    I'd like to ask you non ideological questions, but I need to borrow from ideological arguments to ask the question.

    I'm not going to question the argument that the USA has the best, or some might say worst, healthcare because the conclusion depends on what measurement is used.

    It has been suggested that the USA has the most advanced healthcare in the world. The USA has produced a heck of a lot of technological and medical advancements. Certainly the rate of advancement has been phenomenal. While the private sector has played a big role in this, government funding has been very significant.

    To the questions.

    If it were left entirely to the private sector, the free market, and government funding wasn't part of the equation would we have the tech and medicinal advancements we have today?

    Without third party insurance (private or government) picking up some of the tab, we had a $50k tab a while back and we had insurance, would there be enough patients able to afford treatment thus making the advancements in medicine profitable enough for the market to invest?

    What would you do with those that really can't afford to see the doctor? If you answer the emergency room, how would you pay for it and how do you reconcile that with your pay cash ideal?


    My point being, and I really want to keep ideology out of it, is that while paying cash may force doctors to charge less, I feel the revenue loss could hinder the incentive for advancement.
    Here's my non-ideological answer:

    The Doctor performs a service - for you - and you receive a bill for those services.

    Costs should be a fraction of their current level, and they would be, had third-party payer never existed.

    If you end up owing the Doctor, so what?

    Nobody seems to have a problem carrying an auto loan or a mortgage, so you've got a medical balance, too.

    Big deal.

    I've dealt with this in this very forum on many other occasions - try a search.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post

    Here's my non-ideological answer:

    The Doctor performs a service - for you - and you receive a bill for those services.

    Costs should be a fraction of their current level, and they would be, had third-party payer never existed.
    why is it that hospitals generally charge cash payers more than they charge insurance companies for the same treatment? often 3+ times more.
    If you end up owing the Doctor, so what?

    Many companies go out of business because they are owed money, how many doctors would we have left if they treated patients that can't afford payments? How many doctors would serve poor areas? I see signs in doctors offices stating that uninsured patients have to pay before they see the doctor

    Nobody seems to have a problem carrying an auto loan or a mortgage, so you've got a medical balance, too.

    Big deal.

    But those people have enough wherewithal to obtain a mortgage or car loan in the first place. Someone on minimum wage would at best qualify for a high interest payday loan. What makes you think they could afford to pay off a $50k+ medical debt if they couldn't get a mortgage or car loan and who would lend them the money to see the doctor?
    I seem to remember you blaming poor people getting mortgages for busting the housing market, doesn't the same thinking apply here?


    I've dealt with this in this very forum on many other occasions - try a search.
    You didn't answer the question about where we would be in terms of medical advancement if it were purely market driven cash only services. Unless shown otherwise I doubt you have dealt with this.
    When I was a kid I was told "We do these things not because they're easy, but because they're hard"

    Now all I hear is " I won't do anything unless there's something in it for me"

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by devilsadvocate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by j2k4 View Post

    Here's my non-ideological answer:

    The Doctor performs a service - for you - and you receive a bill for those services.

    Costs should be a fraction of their current level, and they would be, had third-party payer never existed.
    why is it that hospitals generally charge cash payers more than they charge insurance companies for the same treatment? often 3+ times more.
    If you end up owing the Doctor, so what?

    Many companies go out of business because they are owed money, how many doctors would we have left if they treated patients that can't afford payments? How many doctors would serve poor areas? I see signs in doctors offices stating that uninsured patients have to pay before they see the doctor

    Nobody seems to have a problem carrying an auto loan or a mortgage, so you've got a medical balance, too.

    Big deal.

    But those people have enough wherewithal to obtain a mortgage or car loan in the first place. Someone on minimum wage would at best qualify for a high interest payday loan. What makes you think they could afford to pay off a $50k+ medical debt if they couldn't get a mortgage or car loan and who would lend them the money to see the doctor?
    I seem to remember you blaming poor people getting mortgages for busting the housing market, doesn't the same thinking apply here?


    I've dealt with this in this very forum on many other occasions - try a search.
    You didn't answer the question about where we would be in terms of medical advancement if it were purely market driven cash only services. Unless shown otherwise I doubt you have dealt with this.
    Without any proofs, I'm going to say we'd be at least as far, perhaps farther, but we'll never know, now...I don't see a way back, anymore, that doesn't involve a total collapse/default of the economic end of healthcare.

    It's truly the most powerful constituency extant.

    Put it this way:

    Fixing the health-care "payment" crisis would be tantamount to a successful excision of lawyers from our congress.

    Lawyer-politicians earn their pay by tying the system in knots only they can untie, and if they can't, they don't care, c'est la guerre'.

    As to the rest, if there are no insurance companies, all of those problems disappear, or ebb to manageable levels.
    "Researchers have already cast much darkness on the subject, and if they continue their investigations, we shall soon know nothing at all about it."

    -Mark Twain

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