The summer 2011 totally legitimate and like official atheist thread, endorsed too

[Snee]

ffs. One of these again. Always a treat.

Anyone who speaks with absolute certainty about whether there is, or isn't a god, a set of gods, or virtually anything else which is unknowable at this point in time is wasting energy. I don't even know who came up with the initial archetype(s) that spawned most modern religions, so it's impossible to say what the initial parameters were.

Personally, I couldn't even start calculating the odds either way, and from what I know, neither could anyone else. But it's good for pissing people off on the internets. On discussion boards it's usually more fun trolling the atheists, though. Everyone can point out the inconsistencies with modern religions, but they'll generally get pretty worked up the first time they run into the idea that them saying there isn't a god/whatever without proof is them believing something too. But I can and have argued on either side, whichever seemed to be underrepresented, or had the most douchebags present.



However, instinctively I'd say that the more specific the religious belief, the more unlikely it is to turn out to be true.

[mjmacky]

ffs. One of these again. Always a treat.

Anyone who speaks with absolute certainty about whether there is, or isn't a god, a set of gods, or virtually anything else which is unknowable at this point in time is wasting energy

Wasting energy implies effort being put forth to a specific goal that can't be achieved. My goal was to start a discussion about the lack of need for religion and pointing out the fallacies in it, so none wasted. Others may come in here to waste their energy, but that applies to any thread really.

One of the other inspirations for me to start this thread at this particular time was a small debate with my brother about it, and it was totally unfulfilling as well as disappointing. I'm testing something at the moment. Can I hear arguments for religion that aren't so transparently ridiculous? I'm becoming bugged by the devout worshipping of those close to me. I'm beginning to lose respect for their opinions if they're capable of such deliberate ignorance. It's harsh, but it's just how I feel.

[OlegL]

or had the most douchebags present.

You never felt that you are the one who's a douchebag?

[Snee]

Oh shut it, you spaz. Go hide in your cave of fail.

mjacky: Fairy nuff.

I can't really in all honesty argue in favour of a specific religion as far as the logical fallacies go. What I can say, looking towards the practical (and I think I've already said this fairly recently), is that religions have shaped our societies, and that any commandments or rules contained within them help to keep some people in line. Historically, I believe they've helped advance our civilisations, by means of enforcing rules.

In a perfect world we're all strong enough, and have a moral compass strong enough to not need a higher meaning/power/whatever to lean on. In reality I believe that some people actually behave themselves better because of religions. Fear of god, or the promise of a reward for behaving well in the afterlife, is something I think works for some people. If it's not true, well, that never stopped some people from believing [I]anything[/I.] Whether the people affected that way outweigh the people who have bad experiences because of religion I can't honestly say, and I don't think anyone else can, because people use it, or hide behind it so you can't really say what's because of religion.

To be honest, this part I'm not very interested in.

I'm pretty much of the opinion that christianity, islam, and most other religions are perfectly harmless, and that if people want them, they should be allowed them, and that generally, they should be left alone to it.

You want posts about how there's too many variables to say anything at all conclusively, I can probably do that if I'm in the mood.

But do we need religions? I've just about exhausted my honest supply of arguments for it. I could wing something for fun, but don't really see the point if everyone knows I'm faking it.

I think that religions could be altogether good, if it weren't for people warping them for their own selfish needs. Kind of like communism.

[mjmacky]

Sure, I can see that, I don't mind people keeping religion to themselves. I guess that's why I have a bigger problem with Christians & Mormons than Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. The prospect of witnessing is what ends up forcing some beliefs into my radar often enough to find it a nuisance. There's a lot I just needed to vent about, like the hypocrisy of being told to explore the truth further by a christian who only reads from christian sources

Oh well, I wish I could make this more controversial but I've already gotten a lot off and this wasn't meant to be much of a troll thread to begin with, so unlike me.

[Skiz]

Dude, didn't we already discuss it in the other thread? We need the concept of God because according to the great philosopher Kant, if there is no God, then we are allowed to do things that are immoral; we are allowed not to listen to our conscience if there is no God. Therefore, we need God because we need to fear someone. We need God if we don't want relative morality, but want absolute morality.

You may need him; millions of us do not however. If we "need to fear someone", how do you explain how millions of atheists do just fine without... it?

EDIT: Don't answer that. The fact of evolution and the farce that is religion is so blatantly obvious to me. I don't even like having this discussion with people I like, and in real life. I can't be fucked to discuss this again on a forum.

[OlegL]

I think that religions could be altogether good, if it weren't for people warping them for their own selfish needs. Kind of like communism.

If you are implying that communism could have served a good purpose if people hadn't used it for their own selfish needs, you are wrong. Communism cannot serve a good purpose and can never serve a good purpose. In theory, it's a utopia, and a utopian world cannot exist in practice. In practice, communist countries have always been dictatorships, and there is no way communism and democracy can exist in one country.

[mjmacky]

I think that religions could be altogether good, if it weren't for people warping them for their own selfish needs. Kind of like communism.

If you are implying that communism could have served a good purpose if people hadn't used it for their own selfish needs, you are wrong. Communism cannot serve a good purpose and can never serve a good purpose. In theory, it's a utopia, and a utopian world cannot exist in practice. In practice, communist countries have always been dictatorships, and there is no way communism and democracy can exist in one country.

Don't confuse utopia with ideology. One of the principles of communism is that all fail or succeed together, it's a response to a dividing gap between the wealthy and the poor. There are more successful cases than the Soviet Union, but those also had an intrinsic major fault

[darkstate01]

Nice thread chaps by the way.

I have no concept about religion,I have no experience with it or know anybody who practices it.

The thought of wasting time,money and my devotion to something i will never see/hear while i'm conscious is totally alien to my tiny mind.

As a child I was told that there's monsters under my bed and ghost's in the closet,It took me roughly 5 years to figure out this is total bullshit,In this same time period, santa got forgotten about along with the Easter bunny,why haven't humans 2000-4000 years later in the technically and educationally equipped world figured out that the monsters and ghosts along with gods are just fairy tales made to make you do something, otherwise, something bad will happen?

Back in the uneducated bronze age middle east, people were a push over, so the powers that be would tell stories about flying horses,humans coming back from the dead and walking around for 4 days or so after having being nailed to a cross then being stabbed with a spear(longinus) in their heart.
Tell me the last time you saw a dead human walking on the street,or a flying horse,or even this god device everyone puts there whole life into worshiping? being drunk or high doesn't count :-)

I haven't seen or heard this god device,my parents have never said they have,I'm lucky enough to have known my grand parents and they haven't mentioned anything about seeing or hearing it either,there's 3 generations of well educated conscious humans not having any interaction with this all powerful device that lives in the sky.

If you genuinely think or know this god device does for sure exist,ask you parents or grand parents if they have ever seen or heard it,you will be amazed at the answer,which will be no,If you are one of very few humans who have seen or heard this god device,show us the proof,a picture,a recording or better still a miraculous event,If you do get that evidence, I'm on board the ship that noah made. And no that didn't exist either,carnivorous animals on board a ship for 40 days with deer and such like,hilarious.

In the scientific age of man as we are today,we have the most powerful telescopes available to us,where the "hell " is this god or heaven,can you point us in the right direction please? I want to see it, "it" = god and heaven.

Why is this god device a fuzzy faced male? I thought "it" was neither, I got told its because males are the dominant of the sexes.

In one middle eastern book, they don't even let the reader/believer see the picture of the god device they praise,they have "it" coloured out out in white, wtf is that all about, If i buy a book, I don't want it redacted. well disrespectful.

Come on humans,grow the fuck up, If you haven't got a mental malfunction and have been brought up correct,you shouldn't need a fairytale book to guide you through life,use common sense,you will be amazed.

Kick these overpaid fakes (pope/pastors) out of there palaces(churches) sell their planes and palaces,and all there paintings and land they own,give it all away to the genuine sick and poor like real honest to "god" good humans .

Watching on the fence as some old fart from one country says to the occupants of another country that its against the religion to wear a condom is very sad,all those poor babies being born with H.I.V,wheres the religion in that act? Wheres the god device to do the curing then?

GROW THE FUCK UP HUMANS,THERE'S NO GOD,NO PROOF IT'S EXISTED IN THE PAST AND STILL NO PROOF THOUSANDS OF YEARS LATER.

[mjmacky]

In response to that I have one anecdote

Some years ago, my wife was teaching English in China, and I went to visit her (this was my first time there). The town had a population of just over 600,000 (small Chinese village). We took a trip to the center of town and came across of massive elaborate display of ancient Greek gods and figures, just kind of hanging around doing greek mythology stuff. I was surprised to see this, and in turn started talking to some of the Chinese liaisons we had assisting us with what we needed over there. We basically wanted to know what reason they had all those statues in the center of town and what the people thought about it. What was related to me at that point had a profound effect on my position towards spiritual beliefs and was the responsible catalyst in my transition from agnosticism to atheism (I was still trying to shake of the heavy burden of pentecostal protestantism).

They had no idea what those statues were! So we began to describe what they were, and instead of them explaining to us why there's a Greek mythology themed shopping district in the center of town, they were probing us on what we mean by gods. It was something, that many of them to that point had no exposure to, the concept of deities. It was rather difficult to explain, and even though their English wasn't presenting any major difficulties, the concept seemed too bizarre to fully comprehend. It took me back, and finally revealed a perspective I hadn't experienced before. People who have managed to escape the omnipresent reach of religious prophecy do not have an inherent understanding of god(s). It was that itch somewhere in the nook of my mind that couldn't be scratched any other way, the question of why we were all so familiar with the concept of god. We soak up these ideas when we're younger and forget to reexamine them when we're older.

I don't underplay the difficulty of letting go of one's beliefs, as they've been instilled during our youth. It's the refusal to question it, and acknowledge its lack of self-proclaimed perfection. Oh look at me, I'm rambling again. Well those are my thoughts of self-reflection after reading the post before mine.