Democracy be damned.

[megabyteme]

All those peasants were a pain in the arse though... much like the chavs of today... so I can see his point... most western countries could be improved massively with a bit of 'tidying up' of the underclass... think about it a bit... less congestion on the roads once all them nissan cherrys are gone... no more queues at the checkout at Tescos... it's a win/win all around

This is the Drawing Room, so discussion should be kept serious-ish. However, I've worked with the general public (and have seen first-hand the lower end of it, while delivering their food around welfare check time) and I have to say I've had discussions of such things. Good gawd people can be stuuuuuupid.

[NotLettingItGo]

I might be serious... the world does have an over population probelm after all.

Sooner or later a serious discussion about population control is going to have to take place... our poor little planet cannot keep an ever increasing number of us supplied with all our needs... we've already seen water riots in some far off lands... so it's a very serious matter.

Stalins solution would at least alleviate the problem somewhat... look at the Chinese and their one child policy... maybe totalitarian states are the way to go... maybe all this democracy... liberty and freedom stuff are as much parts of the problem the world is facing as capitalism is?

Anyway, they're Chavs... no one would miss them

[brightsid]

Minus the killing of millions, I hope. Wouldn't want to get blood on your new Nikes. A little more to it than "voting"...

Of course MBM, my point is that democracy, justice, peace etc are great when you can afford to discuss or even search for them. I may sound cynical but that's real life.
My english are probably not good enough to discuss matters like this but I'll try to use a well known example, at least for people who had studied history. I apologize for my poor English in advance

As you probably know democracy first established in ancient Greece in the city of Athens and the Athenian democracy is still considered as an almost direct democracy. The greatest and and the most known period of Athenian democracy is called Golden Age and at that period the city was lead by Pericles. It was after the victory in the Persian war, Acropolis was build at this time and the city was the cultural centre of Greece. But it's not well known that Athenian democracy at it's best was relying in two things, slaves and the taxes all the ally cities had to pay to Athens for being the strongest state. That let's say unfair relation lead to the Peloponnesian War. That was the end of the best ages of Athenian democracy. A detailed example of how Athens considered justice and democracy when these had to do with others is the Milian Dialogue reported by Thucydides. It is characterised as the most famous invented dialogue in a historical work. Milos a small island in Agean Sea (great beaches there btw ) was an ally of Athens during the Persian war. At the beginning of Peloponnesian war they tried to stay neutral. But for Athenians it was either with them or against them. So a great Athenian army set out for Milos. As always in ancient Greece before any battle there were negotiations. The main idea of Athenian envoys arguments is the following phrase that describes how people living in the best known democracy are feeling for an ally city.

we Athenians will use no fine words; we will not go out of our way to prove at length that we have a right to rule, because we overthrew the Persians; or that we attack you now because we are suffering any injury at your hands. We should not convince you if we did; nor must you expect to convince us by arguing that, although a colony of the Lacedaemonians, you have taken no part in their expeditions, or that you have never done us any wrong. But you and we should say what we really think, and aim only at what is possible, for we both alike know that into the discussion of human affairs the question of justice only enters where the pressure of necessity is equal, and that the powerful exact what they can, and the weak grant what they must.

Milians refused the terms Athenian won the battle. All the adult men were killed, all the women and children were sold as slaves. All these were decided by the assembly in Athens with direct voting and simple majority

Bottom line and to return to the topic title, democracy can easily be tranformed to "tyranny of the mob". On the other hand every nation should have the right to decide for its future. It's not an is issue of "black or white" and in the end I guess history will be the judge

[999969999]

I can understand that... it's all so fucking complicated to try and follow. I just spent about an hour trying to break it down into a non-complex explanation, to post up, and I can't... it's too fucking complex to break down like that...

What's pissed me off here is the reactions (mainly of Eurozone member state governments) to the idea that the Greek people should get to decide... it's the Irish referendum thing all over again... basically the people mustn't be allowed to choose... cause that'll ruin their little empire...

I also find it interesting that they wouldn't let the Greek people have a chance to decide their own fate.

My own country will soon be facing similar circumstances because we have borrowed more money than we can afford to pay back.

I hope when we reach this point which Greece is now facing, we will have the presence of mind to reject such an offer and just accept the fact that the debt will never be repaid. We wouldn't be the first country to ever default on their debts.

[mjmacky]

I also find it interesting that they wouldn't let the Greek people have a chance to decide their own fate.

My own country will soon be facing similar circumstances because we have borrowed more money than we can afford to pay back.

I hope when we reach this point which Greece is now facing, we will have the presence of mind to reject such an offer and just accept the fact that the debt will never be repaid. We wouldn't be the first country to ever default on their debts.

You mean the U.S. might have to leave the Euro Zone? Oh noes, what will they do?

[Bucerius]

I can understand that... it's all so fucking complicated to try and follow. I just spent about an hour trying to break it down into a non-complex explanation, to post up, and I can't... it's too fucking complex to break down like that...

What's pissed me off here is the reactions (mainly of Eurozone member state governments) to the idea that the Greek people should get to decide... it's the Irish referendum thing all over again... basically the people mustn't be allowed to choose... cause that'll ruin their little empire...

I also find it interesting that they wouldn't let the Greek people have a chance to decide their own fate.

My own country will soon be facing similar circumstances because we have borrowed more money than we can afford to pay back.

I hope when we reach this point which Greece is now facing, we will have the presence of mind to reject such an offer and just accept the fact that the debt will never be repaid. We wouldn't be the first country to ever default on their debts.

You are aware of international law?
You dont have to pay anything if you decide not to.
Look at Iceland they refuse to pay for foreign citizens investment in their own banks...
Nobody can make you pay, its a promise but who will enforce it?

As long as the FED can print money and people have to buy dollar to pay for oil... its like a big monopoly... but the USA controls part of the bank additionally to their own property

[999969999]

I also find it interesting that they wouldn't let the Greek people have a chance to decide their own fate.

My own country will soon be facing similar circumstances because we have borrowed more money than we can afford to pay back.

I hope when we reach this point which Greece is now facing, we will have the presence of mind to reject such an offer and just accept the fact that the debt will never be repaid. We wouldn't be the first country to ever default on their debts.

You are aware of international law?
You dont have to pay anything if you decide not to.
Look at Iceland they refuse to pay for foreign citizens investment in their own banks...
Nobody can make you pay, its a promise but who will enforce it?

As long as the FED can print money and people have to buy dollar to pay for oil... its like a big monopoly... but the USA controls part of the bank additionally to their own property

Exactly. Who will enforce it? Who will make us pay it back?

We won't ever pay it back.

[clocker]

Have you informed the customers of your family business about your new policy of debt repayment, i.e., debts can be ignored and ultimately, rejected?
With Christmas coming up, they'll be overjoyed.

[mjmacky]

Have you informed the customers of your family business about your new policy of debt repayment, i.e., debts can be ignored and ultimately, rejected?
With Christmas coming up, they'll be overjoyed.

They have a family business? Please tell me they're a hedge fund firm, please please please.

[temisturk]

You are aware of international law?
You dont have to pay anything if you decide not to.
Look at Iceland they refuse to pay for foreign citizens investment in their own banks...
Nobody can make you pay, its a promise but who will enforce it?

They may not be able to make you pay directly. But if you're unable to repay your debts then it's likely you will require credit in future and unlikely you will get it without accepting terms you find unpalatable.