Divide And Destroy.

[ilw]

What would those "politically correct" european leaders say if Israel killed 6 million arabs? They would have a field day. It amounts to hypocrisy imho.

What would you expect them to do if you killed 6 million Arabs? Say fair enough? And it wasn't all of europe that committed the holocaust which i assume your referring to. It wasn't even as though Europe completely looked the other way while the holocaust was going on, I seem to recall there was the small matter of a war? Even back then the most Germans were not even aware of the attrocities going on and most of the German population alive today were either small children or not even born when the holocaust was going on, are they still to blame? All germans through perpetuity?
The leaders of European countries can't give a carte blanche simply because of guilt over what are basically someone elses attrocities, they have to make their decisions based on the situation today and the ideals they wish to uphold. I don't think thats hypocrisy.

[MediaSlayer]

Originally posted by ilw@18 November 2003 - 11:25
What would you expect them to do if you killed 6 million Arabs? Say fair enough? .

I would expect them to react badly if that happened, just as we reacted badly when it happened to us. I would not expect them to just forget all about it, that's not the type of thing you sweep under the rug. Oddly enough, they DO expect the entire world to just say "oh well, that was a long time ago, and it was the government doing it". Who would Israel have to negotiate with for a membership in the EU? The governments of the member states, no? At any rate, I was making a point about hypocrisy, not proposing the actual murder of 6 million arabs. As I said in another thread, they are closely related to us. Even if they weren't, violence is not the answer. It begins that all too familiar cycle of hatred>revenge>more violence.

It wasn't even as though Europe completely looked the other way while the holocaust was going on, I seem to recall there was the small matter of a war?

Really? Do you also recall the small matter of a certain thule society which provided the core nazi ideologies that ultimately culminated in open aggression on a massive scale? It didn't happen overnight, and I suspect some nations that were officially "neutral" were not as neutral as you might think. I'm sure I don't have to remind you that the word "holocaust" itself literally means "burnt offering". Burnt offering to who? Good question. Pretty bizarre stuff, imho. Anyway, the point of the matter is I don't think a membership in the EU would be helpful. I already gave reasons in the last post.

[Billy_Dean]

Are we forgetting the work of the Stern Gang here? This jewish terrorist group went to Germany in the 30's and asked the Nazis to expel all the jews from Europe. The rich ones got out, the poor, who found it difficult to leave were mostly murdered. If they hadn't done a deal with the Nazis, would the holocaust have happened? The Stern Gang wanted jews expelled so they would flood Palestine and drive all arabs out, that was the first part of their plan for a greater Israel. Not something the jewish people like to talk about is it? To think jews may have caused the holocaust, and the death of six million of their own people.

[MediaSlayer]

The stern gang's presence did not affect the root cause of WWII/holocaust. The root cause was an increasing Jewish population in Europe in general, coupled with an increasingly hostile political movement in germany. Also factor in economic woes, around the same time frame. It's a recipe for disaster. During hard times, people look for scapegoats. They look for reasons as to why they are suffering. They look at things they don't normally pay much attention to, because they are desperate. What did they find? Hmm..... I think the reich figured they could kill all the Jews and take Israel for itself. This would solve the problem of too many Jews in Europe that don't belong there and also give it some much needed Lebensraum. I don't think the stern gang "caused" the holocaust(it was already in motion by the time they were speaking with the nazi's), but their input definitely added a complexity to the situation that was unhelpful imho. So when all is said and done, when all the different aspects are considered, I don't think Israel should join the EU, even if offered.

[Billy_Dean]

One day there will be a *United States of the Middle East* and Israel will have a big part to play, it's a pity Turkey is close to joining the EU, they would also be a big bonus.

When you say the holocaust was already happening when the Stern Gang were there, when are you talking about? They first went there in 1936 I believe it was, before Crystal Night even. The word Holocaust is used to signify the death camps, they started long after that.

[Billy_Dean]

This was the first contact with the Nazi party, it may seem innocuous, but it was the first spark.

On June 21, 1933, the German Zionist Federation sent a secret memorandum to the Nazis:

"Zionism has no illusions about the difficulty of the Jewish condition, which consists above all in an abnormal occupational pattern and in the fault of an intellectual and moral posture not rooted in one's own tradition. Zionism recognized decades ago that as a result of the assimilationist trend, symptoms of deterioration were bound to appear, which it seeks to overcome by carrying out its challenge to transform Jewish life completely.

"It is our opinion that an answer to the Jewish question truly satisfying to the national state can be brought about only with the collaboration of the Jewish movement that aims at a social, cultural and moral renewal of Jewry--indeed, that such a national renewal must first create the decisive social and spiritual premises for all solutions.

"Zionism believes that a rebirth of national life, such as is occurring in German life through adhesion to Christian and national values, must also take place in the Jewish national group. For the Jew, too, origin, religion, community of fate and group consciousness must be of decisive significance in the shaping of his life. This means that the egotistic individualism which arose in the liberal era must be overcome by public spiritedness and by willingness to accept responsibility."


This continued well into the war, after the first concentration camps had opened.



Zionist factions competed for the honor of allying to Hitler. By 1940-41, the "Stern Gang," among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the "Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany."

Avraham Stern and his followers announced that

"The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that:

1. Common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO.

2. Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and,

3. The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.

Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively take part in the war on Germany's side."


Doesn't make good reading does it?

[J'Pol]

Billy

You usually give us your source for these, could you possibly do so this time. I would very much like to read your last post in context.

Thanks.

[Billy_Dean]

Sorry JP, forgot, don't usually.

Lenni Brenner.

[J'Pol]

Thanks

[Billy_Dean]

Information on this, whilst often alluded to, can be difficult to find. I've been studying this now for weeks, some documents I have found have been scans of originals, all in German and what i suppose is hebrew. I have come across dozens of interesting sites, I chose to quote this one as it purports to quote actual documents. The Stern Gang manifesto is easy to find tho, some of the others aren't.