Democracy be damned.

[NotLettingItGo]

Latest news from Greece is that the people cannot be trusted to decide for themselves which way they want their country to go... no they must bend to the will of the German/French alliance. This was decided by the democratically fair method of the German/French alliance telling the Greeks that if they failed to comply they wouldn't just be ejected from the Euro... but from the EU. Thus removing them from the single market completely... because they would have upset the Germans and French. Fuck that it would deny them trading within the single market with non Euro members of the EU... oh no... if you don't comply with what the Germans and French tell you to comply with, you'll be kicked out completely.

It's enough to make you wonder why more than 20,000 Greeks gave their lives in WWII... I have the feeling that it wasn't so their country could be dictated to, and controlled by the Germans... something to do with self-determination... I seem to recall... ah well... Welcome to the Fourth Reich.

[megabyteme]

I haven't been following this, so catch me up if I'm way off, but shouldn't a country that has completely failed financially and needs to be bailed out by more responsible countries fall under some sanctions decided by those who are picking up the tab?

[NotLettingItGo]

I can understand that... it's all so fucking complicated to try and follow. I just spent about an hour trying to break it down into a non-complex explanation, to post up, and I can't... it's too fucking complex to break down like that...

What's pissed me off here is the reactions (mainly of Eurozone member state governments) to the idea that the Greek people should get to decide... it's the Irish referendum thing all over again... basically the people mustn't be allowed to choose... cause that'll ruin their little empire...

[megabyteme]

Let me try to help by taking your side in this, and let's see if my arguments help you express what's on your mind. (As I said, I haven't been following this, so let me know if I get way off here. For this part, I am simply trying to pull some of the pieces together.)

-One of the great benefits of bringing the EU together was that it would create a "unified Europe"- bigger, stronger, uncut more competitive against The US and Asia.

-While groups are often put together under egalitarian ideals, it doesn't take long for the stronger members to feel like Atlas, and for the weaker ones to get pushed around.

-As the pecking order begins to become apparent, hostilities form because costs are paid by the stronger, and the weaker reap rewards of being associated with the stronger members- this is after all, the type of argument that is made initially for the formation of the group.

-When resources are abundant (as they were during the formation of the EU), it is easy to share. There are plenty of antelope, and the streams are filled with clear, cool water.

-When times come when resources get scarce, not only are the antelope already gone, but the once friendly neighbor begins looking like the one who not only caused the disappearance of the antelope, but is looking more, and more tasty.

On a side note, it is QUITE ironic Germany would be looking to place crippling sanctions on an already weakened Greece. Have they forgotten (as must the rest of the EU) Germany's motivation for saying screw you to the world after facing impossible sanctions placed upon it post WWI (otherwise known as the WWII Prequel)?

I will say, there is NOTHING more infuriating than having a group of people who have put themselves in the position of deciding your fate, and who speak as if you are not present in the room.

Are these some of the points you were working on, Rej?

[NotLettingItGo]

Yes and no...

OK starting from the top...

The Euro 'experiment' was always doomed to failure... it still is... it's part of an experiment in egalitarianism where politicians have tried to take unequal systems (democratically, economically, and socially) and marry them together for some ideal of what they believe is 'fair'. They called it the EU, and they're busy imposing their definition of 'fair' upon it. The countries of Europe have never been equal though... that's why the French hate the English Language... it's why Germany can dump nuclear power generation, whilst France invests more and more into it. It's why England is big on trading, whilst the other countries aren't... Culturally and therefore socially the countries of Europe are vastly different... and they revel in the differences.

Consequently they're all economically different... trying to marry them together into a single currency is only ever going to benefit the member states which make a lot of money... they (being the money generators) get control of the currency... because they're making the money... Countries like Greece, Portugal, Spain, and Italy don't have the kind of money generating economies of countries like Germany, France, and Britain. They have other attributes... like for example Tourism in Greece, and Spain. Food in France and Italy... which are very lucrative, but not nearly so lucrative as trading, or engineering manufacturing...

Greece however joined in with this Euro project... as such their currency has had to fit the market conditions which suited Germany... France... Italy, etc, etc. Their involvement has encouraged their social structure to expect their government to deliver the kind of social provision of the likes of Germany, France, etc. That costs money... a lot of it. Which is OK for Germany and France... they make lots of it... Greece makes a fair bit but not enough to provide the same kid of social provision as Germany does... so they borrow the money in the market... borrowing money to 'keep up' with the richer economies has got them into massive debt. The value of economies has fallen... loans now cost more... especially if the lender isn't confident that you can pay it back... like if you're heavily in debt already... it doesn't matter that your next door neighbour is a millionaire... it's your debt, you have to pay it back.

The Greek people (along with people all over Europe) are busy blaming the bankers... but the debts have been created by politicians... it was they who borrowed the money... no banker forced them to do so.
The Greek people are busy telling everyone that the money wasn't spent on them... but it was... it was spent on them by their Governments... just as the debts Britain has is for money our Government has spent... on us, on things we want, on services we demand... it wasn't stashed away in bank accounts... if it was they (and we) would be able to pay it back... it was spent.

All debts must be paid... that's how lending works.

So what we have a system that has encouraged the people and governments of poorer nations to try and provide the same to their people as the governments of richer nations... we call it the EU... complete with its own currency which of course fits well for countries who make a lot of the currency... because they have it to invest and spend... and can therefore largely control what the currency does... but the poorer neighbour is completely fucked... not only have you encouraged him to try and 'keep up' with you... you've taken away his ability to control the value of his currency... and now he's in trouble...

Now those who created this entire mess aren't happy that the Government of Greece... the one the Greeks elected to run their country for them... wants them to decide if they should accept their country being 'ruled' (effective by virtue of telling their Government what it can and can't spend, and therefore provide) by the very people who created the entire debacle in the first place...

There's no democracy here... they've taken democratic countries and subverted the entire democratic thing into something that bears as little resemblance to democracy as the Politburo did... the fate of Greece isn't being decided by the EU (who do at least have one elected chamber)... it's being decided by the presidents and prime ministers of other countries... by people who were never voted for by the Greeks...

[megabyteme]

Some here (usually smarter civilians) tend to think of the mortgage collapse as a modern day "land grab". People were given properties they could not afford- with terms that were unreasonable after the first 2 years, and then the banks gained control of those properties. They also received BILLIONS in the form of bail-out monies.

Looking at the EU situation, it seems similar- there's BILLIONS of dollars being discussed for "bail-out" and those who never had a chance of success are losing control of their homes (country). :hmmm:

[mjmacky]

It's funny when you look at the EU as a whole, they begin to resemble the United States in certain fundamental aspects. They were probably better off being without a union, but rather keeping open borders (like an expansion on the Schengen Agreement).

[brightsid]

Personal opinion but it's not Greece problem anymore. Having read a lot of interesting things the last few months I really believe that it's not even EU problem. The Greek issue is almost over one way or the other. But Italy is already on stage and that is not a small fish anymore. It's the third economy in EU and the 7th in the world. When (not if) they go down then I don't think there is a way back.

It may sound weird ok I love democracy, but if Stalin or Mao can ensure the food,clothes and education of my children right now I don't want to vote.

[megabyteme]

It may sound weird ok I love democracy, but if Stalin or Mao can ensure the food,clothes and education of my children right now I don't want to vote.

Minus the killing of millions, I hope. Wouldn't want to get blood on your new Nikes. A little more to it than "voting"...

[NotLettingItGo]

All those peasants were a pain in the arse though... much like the chavs of today... so I can see his point... most western countries could be improved massively with a bit of 'tidying up' of the underclass... think about it a bit... less congestion on the roads once all them nissan cherrys are gone... no more queues at the checkout at Tescos... it's a win/win all around