New build and the inevitable problems

[Rart]

Here you go

https://build.falcon-nw.com/Configur...ationId=144255

Lacking flashing lights, but I'm sure telling people how much you spent on it will make up for that.

[Artemis]

If you have the money there is a big performance advantage to be had in 32GB of (fast) RAM plus an SSD, the speed difference on the same system over 16GB with this upgrade is noticeable.

I would like the technical reasoning behind this. How would there be a noticeable difference when most of the time (if ever, as far as I can see) 16GB, yet alone the 32GB, would not be fully put to use?

I am not making an argument here, Art, but hope to learn something.

This was a simple observation from my own build, when new I purchased 16GB of G.Skill Ripjaws 1866 DDR3 RAM and an OCZ SSD, a month later I had the spare cash for the other 16GB, the access times on the SSD jumped and in performance tests (the standard windows ones and others) there was a marked improvement in SSD performance, the only difference was the addition of extra RAM but even with the standard Windows 7 performance test the hard drive access maxed out at 7.9 and in fact the performance limiting factor of the machine according to the tests was/is the graphics card since I still haven't upgraded it, it still comes in at 7.7 though.

The difference between Rart and his reading and me, is the experience of having installed the extra RAM and seeing the performance difference. Now why did I add the extra RAM in the first place, well I built this machine for a purpose, media encoding and it is something that it does very quickly, it maxes out the resources while encoding, but it is evilly fast at doing the job I built it for.

Another point with my system is that it is based on an LGA 2011 processor which it is recommended (by Intel themselves) to use water cooling with. The LGA 2011 CPU's are not supplied with an HSF and Intel themselves retail an Asetek designed water cooler for the LGA 2011 the RTS2011LC, with the high TDP of 130W these CPU's need alot of cooling and on other X79 (LGA 2011) based systems I have dealt with that have an air cooler installed the fan r.p.m. is quite high because of the need to disperse the heat.

Another case in point was a friend who was dissatisfied with the cooler he had in his system, since he felt it was noisy and opted for a water cooler instead. The air cooler in question was a CoolerMaster V8 on an i7 2600k with a mild overclock. I did the installation of the water cooler (another Antec) and on his system there was a drop in the CPU temperature and a drop in the sound pressure, from a water cooler that was a comparable price to the air cooler that it replaced, once again a direct comparison I have seen from an installation I helped with.

I will repeat again though that these are cases where more than standard cooling was required, if in Idol's case he is planning on keeping the machine stock then the debate is moot.

And we are still waiting for the fatuous comments to die down in that direction and for him to give some relevant input as to what he thinks regarding a build and whether he would overclock the system.

[Rart]

I'm sorry but I've yet to see any case where RAM over how much is needed by the programs you currently have open has had any sort of performance benefit. You'd have to have an absurd amount of programs open just to hit 8 GB, let alone 16 or 32. Media encoding is also largely CPU bound and excess RAM will not help in that regard. If you can find me some sort of enthusiast article/benchmark that proves otherwise I'll change my mind, but until then anecdotal evidence doesn't convince me otherwise. There was probably another factor at work.

Even if the extra RAM provided some sort of minor benefit, you'd get a far bigger benefit from investing into a higher capacity SSD (more NAND dies = more channels in parallel = better performance), or raid0-ing two smaller drives.

And since you brough up the Antec 920 H2O, I dug up a review on it (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1214-page8.html). It gets worst temps than air coolers that are cheaper and quieter. Another factor to take into consideration is that those tests are done in controlled test beds. In a normal system, you're giving up a case fan to install one of those water coolers, which is going to hurt overall temps even more. Low end water cooling simply isn't worth it, it's a marketing gimmick perpetuated by companies because they realize there are a lot of people that automatically assume liquid cooling is automatically better, when it really isn't until you start investing time and money into a good custom loop.

[IdolEyes787]

And we are still waiting for the fatuous comments to die down in that direction and for him to give some relevant input as to what he thinks regarding a build and whether he would overclock the system.

Not going to happen,nerd.The fact that there is no laughter in Hell isn't by mere coincidence.

Btw nice well written ghey computer related post.So much so that I only died a little bit reading it.

[Artemis]

I'm sorry but I've yet to see any case where RAM over how much is needed by the programs you currently have open has had any sort of performance benefit. You'd have to have an absurd amount of programs open just to hit 8 GB, let alone 16 or 32. Media encoding is also largely CPU bound and excess RAM will not help in that regard. If you can find me some sort of enthusiast article/benchmark that proves otherwise I'll change my mind, but until then anecdotal evidence doesn't convince me otherwise. There was probably another factor at work.

Even if the extra RAM provided some sort of minor benefit, you'd get a far bigger benefit from investing into a higher capacity SSD (more NAND dies = more channels in parallel = better performance), or raid0-ing two smaller drives.

And since you brough up the Antec 920 H2O, I dug up a review on it (http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1214-page8.html). It gets worst temps than air coolers that are cheaper and quieter. Another factor to take into consideration is that those tests are done in controlled test beds. In a normal system, you're giving up a case fan to install one of those water coolers, which is going to hurt overall temps even more. Low end water cooling simply isn't worth it, it's a marketing gimmick perpetuated by companies because they realize there are a lot of people that automatically assume liquid cooling is automatically better, when it really isn't until you start investing time and money into a good custom loop.

In my own case first, I take it you understand X79 architecture? The MINIMUM amount of RAM you can install on the system is 16GB, the maximum is 32GB or 64GB depending on whether the motherboard is a single or dual bank design. There is a thread on the build lurking somewhere in this very sub forum and pics of the PC in the post pics thread.

I once again reiterate too that Intel do not supply an HSF with the LGA 2011 cpu's you must purchase an aftermarket one and at the time I purchased mine they were recommending water cooling, even having their own water cooler for the LGA 2011 cpu's (as an aftermarket add on) but no HSF.

I'm so glad you found a negative review to back up your point, this is the internet, there are people on here that fervently believe the earth is flat and I usually try to find at least two or thee differing reviews/opinions to find a balance. At the time of purchase the Antec 920 was rated very highly and I liked and still do, the ability to monitor and control the device directly via the USB interface and included software. I can create a custom profile, control fan speeds and monitor temps, fan and pump speeds and the ambient noise.

Another advantage to water cooling is space, this may not seem like much but air coolers have been getting larger and larger over time in an effort to dissipate heat and in the process decrease the airflow within the case. Without this large expanse of aluminium fins there is more space and better airflow.

I recently installed a Deep Cool Assassin cooler on another system, it is so large that it actually covers most of the RAM banks, some of the air coolers out there are starting to get silly.

Additionally there are 4 PCs (there are other computers, but not being used as PC's) in this house, all have aftermarket cooling solutions, the water cooled one is the quietest.

[Rart]

In my own case first, I take it you understand X79 architecture? The MINIMUM amount of RAM you can install on the system is 16GB, the maximum is 32GB or 64GB depending on whether the motherboard is a single or dual bank design. There is a thread on the build lurking somewhere in this very sub forum and pics of the PC in the post pics thread.

...Ok? That doesn't change the fact that having RAM in excess of how much your active programs will actually use is essentially useless. If you consistently use more than 16 GB of RAM thats fine, but there's no way in hell a simple gaming PC is ever going to get remotely close to that.

I'm so glad you found a negative review to back up your point, this is the internet, there are people on here that fervently believe the earth is flat and I usually try to find at least two or thee differing reviews/opinions to find a balance.

I didn't find some random newegg review online. It's an extremely reputable site that easily has the most sophisticated and accurate testing methodology for cooling and noise out of any site I've seen. Even Anandtech, which I consider to be by far the best and most in depth review site by far, doesn't hold a candle to this site when it comes to specifically testing cooling. The Antec 920 objectively has worse temps and more noise than air coolers at a higher price. There's really not much in terms of sway, it isn't really someones "opinion".

At the time of purchase the Antec 920 was rated very highly and I liked and still do, the ability to monitor and control the device directly via the USB interface and included software. I can create a custom profile, control fan speeds and monitor temps, fan and pump speeds and the ambient noise.

That's fine. I'd argue that there's plenty of other ways to accomplish that through third party programs such as Speedfan if you chose to go with another cooler, but if you like the streamlined approach that comes with that cooler, that's a perfectly valid reason for buying it.

Another advantage to water cooling is space, this may not seem like much but air coolers have been getting larger and larger over time in an effort to dissipate heat and in the process decrease the airflow within the case. Without this large expanse of aluminium fins there is more space and better airflow. I recently installed a Deep Cool Assassin cooler on another system, it is so large that it actually covers most of the RAM banks, some of the air coolers out there are starting to get silly.

That's true. Water coolers will certainly have an advantage in terms of compactness compared to air coolers, which is especially useful if you're going for an HTPC/matx/mitx build. On the airflow front... I'd argue that you'd be getting worse airflow overall with a water cooler. The fact that you lose a case fan with a water cooler is a much bigger deal than any minor impedance that comes with a tower heatsink. As for the RAM issue, any ram with low profile heatsinks will fit just fine, the large heatsinks are nigh pointless on memory. Even if you are hellbent on overclocking your RAM (which will provide negligible benefits in and of itself) and want those sticks with those ridiculous heatsinks, there are plenty of excellent air coolers that are either thinner or have asymmetrical designs to get around that issue.

Additionally there are 4 PCs (there are other computers, but not being used as PC's) in this house, all have aftermarket cooling solutions, the water cooled one is the quietest.

That's a ridiculous comparison. That's like saying you installed an AMD 7850 on those 4 computers and a GTX 780 on the other computer and the Nvidia computer performed better, so Nvidia must always be better. If you get good air coolers with good fans, it will easily outperform these "pre built" liquid coolers.

[Artemis]

You seem to have a short attention span, I explained earlier that the CPU on my water cooled system has a TDP of 130w, by far the highest thermal output of the four systems I was referring to, it also works the hardest yet it is the quietest.

I have a question though, have you actually installed/dealt with a closed loop water cooler? I am just wondering whether your opinion of them as a gimmick is based on what you have read or whether you have actually had any experience with them?

[IdolEyes787]

nerd_fight_tex-100000258-large.jpg

[Artemis]

[Rart]

You seem to have a short attention span, I explained earlier that the CPU on my water cooled system has a TDP of 130w, by far the highest thermal output of the four systems I was referring to, it also works the hardest yet it is the quietest.

I remember that, it still doesn't make it a valid comparison. You could be using a god awful cooler on a lower TDP system and the Antec 920 on the 130w system. Just saying "I have an air cooler on this pc, a water cooler on this other one that runs hotter, the water cooler one is quieter" doesn't provide any sort of information to draw a solid conclusion that your water cooler is better than all air coolers.

I have a question though, have you actually installed/dealt with a closed loop water cooler? I am just wondering whether your opinion of them as a gimmick is based on what you have read or whether you have actually had any experience with them?

Nope, I haven't. Mainly because basically every reputable cooling review I've read points toward the fact that you can get better, quieter performance for cheaper from an air cooler than from these prebuilt, low end water coolers. I don't exactly have money to burn.

Let me ask you something then. Have you ever tested one of the SPCR vetted heatsinks against your water cooler, using the exact same setup and hardware, exact same fans, and exact same RPM and undergoing the exact same tests and found the liquid cooler to have better temps and be quieter?

You can't use anecdotal evidence of varying, non controlled setups with potentially subpar air coolers and come to the conclusion that your water cooler is undoubtedly better.

I'd prefer evidence from controlled, tested, and constant environment over anecdotal evidence anyday. Maybe that's where you and I differ.