I'm All For The War. I Think Its Right

[puremindmatters]

Originally posted by UKMan+25 February 2003 - 22:51--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (UKMan @ 25 February 2003 - 22:51)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--kevin13579@20 February 2003 - 18:04
Well said insanebassman, i agree, and UKman, this is an important issue of our generation and will go down in history so i think it should be discussed. Senior members and board gods are always saying how this forum is more than a P2P forum and the loungeis the place to discuss non-related kazaa stuff

Hiya Kevin,
of course its an important issue, but reading carefully through most of these threads gives me the shivers&#33;
Of course we are all free to talk about whatever and i welcome it - but i still feel that politics dosnt have the answer. I hope you can guess my own views on the IRAQ crisis - i wont quote them here because it just creates more crap feedback (i am against the war, thats enough) - my point being in my post above that:
Stop the talking - no more politicians on this board please, they have caused enough problems&#33; If you talk about a problem long enough, it gets so frustratingly difficult to solve, that we all end up shooting each other. Cant we just STOP and learn to live with each other for the very short 70+ years we all live here?

Peace bro - i mean that
UKMan

PS: Isnt it great to be back again ? [/b][/quote]
I couldn&#39;t agree more - I think we have exchanged our opinions and our reasoning behind them more than enough.
I don&#39;t think any of our arguments become stronger or more valid if we start shouting them at each other or re-iterate them another 50 times.

Suffice it to say, there are no "American", "French", "English", "German" views on this topic, since there is a diversity of opinion in each of those countries. I think it is wrong to generalize for the sake of expressing one&#39;s discomfort with other peoples opinions more easily.

And about the Nobel Price nomination: I think there are people putting a lot of thought into whom they deem worthy of that honour, who are surely more qualified than us - and I don&#39;t want to discourage the gentleman who thinks this is a joke, but judging from his arguments so far, I cannot see him being one of the future candidates.

Edit: typo

[al_birkett]

if we dont take saddam out now he will pose a bigger threat later....

[MagicNakor]

Not necessarily. He&#39;s almost seventy years old now. His two sons are pretty young, however.

[evilbagpuss]

Has anyone given any thought to what happens after we get rid of Saddam?

Bush never mentions it and neither does Blair.

This is the situation. In Iraq you have 3 main groups. The Sunnis, the shi&#39;ites (spelling?) and the kurds. They all hate each other and have done for generations. Are we just going to go in there install a democratic government and then they all live happily ever after? I think not.

Are we going to go into every country that has a dictatorship and get rid of them too? I think not, especially if it&#39;s a pro-US dictatorship.

The USA has a long history of supporting Dictators . General Pinochet&#39;s coup in Chile which toppled a democratically elected government was supported by the CIA. This led to thousands of Chileans "disappearing". imho any true American patriot would be part of the "Not in our Name" movement., not waving the flag supporting war in a country they probably cant locate on the map.

Also, if the Western world is so morally superior, how come we trade with China? Their human rights record is disgusting yet they are now close allies.

Whatever this war is about it has nothing to do with morality, the well being of innocent people or the safety of the USA. Colin Powells "evidence" was plagiarised from a graduates paper on the subject. Thats the best evidence the most advanced military in the world can come up with??? hmm.....

On a final note people should also bear in mind that if the UK/USA do go to war without a 2nd UN resolution they will be breaking International law. The worlds (corrupt) police force will then be nothing but a vigilante.

[100%]

[sAdam]

rumor is that its on for late march, any1 hear different?

zardoz-

America, look at your leaders and the unaccountable organisations that are supposedly working in your best interests,
While at the same time sending you off to die in a foreign land for something that you don’t completely understand or support

i&#39;m interested to know where you are from. you have so many things about america fundamentally wrong that you should not be speaking about the issue at all. talking about americans being "sent off" to fight is ludicrous. what part of volunteer do you not understand?

ynhockey -

the Iraqi army HAS improved, no doubt about that, because when arrogant people like you sat and watched TV, they built tanks, airplanes, etc. - the US knows nothing about the Iraqi army because the UN officials were kicked out way long ago. If you know something about WW II then you can estimate the amount of vehicles that Iraq could&#39;ve built in this period of time, even after the UN officials were sent back.

As for the Israeli army, again, idiotic statement. I am a single child, therefore, I don&#39;t have to fight at all. I have to serve 3 years but I can spend those 3 years repairing computers. I am going into a fighting division. Please find out a little more about the Israeli army before you make such statements.

"The Iraqi military is considerably smaller than the force that opposed coalition troops in the Gulf War. The Iraqi army had 70 divisions in 1991, but only 23 today. Its elite Republican Guard is half the 12 divisions it was in 1991.

"Not only do they have fewer divisions, but the divisions tend to be more hollow than they were in 1991, because … they lost a lot of equipment in 1991," the official said. Trucks, in particular, are in critically short supply, making it difficult for Iraqi forces to move equipment, ammunition and personnel." - defenselink.mil

does that sound like a stronger iraqi army? also iraq, to the best of my knowledge does not manufacture military aircraft or complete tanks. and to say that the u.s. knows nothing about the iraqi army for lack of u.n. inspectors just further illustrates your lack of understanding.

furthermore, as to my knowledge of the israeli army, considering many of my family members have served in it i suppose it could be better, but you did not explicitly say that you were joining a combat unit in your first post. besides you will never fight iraq. israel will never, in the near future, be part of a coalition that includes muslim nations. the only people you may fight will be palestinians. if you are handier with an m-4 or galil than you are with your limited wit you may kill a terrorist or two and make the world a better place, but judging from your general ignorance and lack of will to correct it, i estimate that the aforementioned will be the greatest contribution that you could possibly hope to make.

as for myself i am canadian and i would like to apologize for the fence sitting my government is doing, it seems that they are finally beginning to commit, but the delay is inexcusable.

[I_DONT_SHARE_PORN]

Originally posted by ClubDiggler+25 February 2003 - 17:47--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ClubDiggler @ 25 February 2003 - 17:47)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--maximboy99@20 February 2003 - 09:36

I can understand France/Germany not wanting to go to war, its America&#39;s problem, they brought it up in the first place.

Yah, lets just pretend like France and Germany are not part of the UN, and than you make a logical leap in your argument.

i do believe something needs to be done about saddam hussein but why does the USA have to be the main force behind that? see if the usa isnt careful one day they are going to step on the wrong toes and be in deep shit. <<I_QUIT_READING_HERE>>

i know that the usa can take just about any country one on one but.....if you have a few countries gang up on the usa then theres a problem.

i live in the united states was born in the united states. i believe in freedom but i do not believe that the united states needs to be sticking their nose in every little conflict going on in the world.

ever heard the saying you stick your hand in the bees nest trying to get honey too many times youll get stung. thats whats going to happen to the US eventually if they keep on going the way they are.

no country including the usa is invincible&#33;

No doubt. We cannot isolate ourselves from the world because everytime the US does that, it bites us back. You could argue our actions will isolate us, but I &#39;m fairly confident a large coalition will come together on this. France and Germany are more likely to find themselves isolated than the US. I really don&#39;t want to have to go into this, but I firmly believe Saddam has WMD and is skirting the UN, and because of this, is a threat to the US and many other countries. Innaction is just as dangerous as action, but its easier to not act.

I may just sign off on this subject forever more. Things I say get misinterpreted, war sucks cause dead people IRL is not like the t.v. or a video game or a movie, it is very real.

I agree that opinions dont change often, but its important to understand that each side has moral and logical reasoning for their positions. It is important to have a dialogue, especially because this forum has so much world perspective. Europeans need to understand Americans; Americans need to understand Europeans (as well as the rest of the world). We are all friends in peace and democracy, and troubling times require dialogue. Sometimes the peaceful ways of our nations are disturbed and there is a need for discourse and action. Secondly, who DOESNT understand this is not TV? I think everyone understands just fine. Blowing off an argument because you dont think they understand it is "real" suggests someone has a psychological problem or are emotionally challenged. I dont think anyone who has found their way onto this forum has that issue, even the people I strongly disagree with.

All of you war supporters
I hear no mention of you going to fight
Where are you from?

I hope you&#39;re going to sign up or are you just blowing it out of your arse.

I hate armchair warmongers who are very happy to send others to their death

If you believe what you say, Put your life where your mouth is.

What a copout.

And are you going to be one of the dead
Are you going?

It&#39;s people like you sat in their IVORY towers who think 148 allied lives are irrelevant and what about the Iraqi lives
They obviously have no meaning
I bet MY LIFE that you hold your own far more important than any others especially the soldiers you so readily send to death
You disgust me, you cowardly small-minded fool
This time Sadam knows it&#39;s for keeps so there&#39;s nothing to stop him using chemical or bio weapons this time
If you think that there are only going to be 130 allied death then you really are more stupid than my wildest speculations

Your way off base here and you offer no solutions or constructive criticism. Would you like to base something on fact or maybe pose some logical arguments?

Turkey have already stated that they will NOT automatically support any war on Iraq, or indeed allow anyone to use their airbases for an attack on Iraq.

Good point, but that changed today when Turkey agreed to allow US to use their bases in return for a large sum of aid (see: money).

the 250,000 Iraqi&#39;s killed dont count as human lives to you?

Sicko...

Unlike some of your compatriots that are willing to debate, although not agree, you seem to want a war for TV entertainment as much as anything else.

Hell, you&#39;ve even upset other pro-war members, never mind the anti-war lobby, so I echo the sentements posted by one of them....


Go back and play your Red Alert2.

As to the Post regarding France/Germany....

Im sure I answered WHY Germany and France cant send troops to Turkey UNTIL Turkey is attacked elswhere.

Germany cannot deploy Troops outside of Germany unless called on by UN or is attacked (or NATO member is attacked)...Its ILLEGAL.....Im sure it was the USA that insisted on this after WWII, so why are you complaining?

France is in the unique position of not being a FULL member of NATO. It comes into NATO in times of war.

NEITHER country said they would not help Turkey if attacked. They will not, however send troops to the Iraqi border prior to them being attacked....as they do not wish to be associated with the US/UK attack on Iraq.

Quite frankly, neither do I......unfortunatly the UK Government is taking part...But NOT IN MY NAME

Rat Faced, I think your missing his point completely and responding emotionally. He is simply pointing out allied military casualties will likely be low. Secondly, thats passing judgement to say he doesn&#39;t care about the 250,000 killed, you cant know how he feels. Thirdly, France was not stopping troops from being placed on the Turkey/Iraq border. France tried to halt purely defensive capabilities which would protect Turkey from possible skud attacks, and France tried to block other non-attacking units like U2 planes.

Such a disregard for the safety of a Nato member just further displays that France is only playing politics. This seriously puts into question France&#39;s motivations for being opposed to this war. Further evidence of this, is the extremely offensive comments Chirac made about the 10 Eastern European countries that have come out in support of the US. France is playing dirty and I am starting to believe their motives are not in world security, but in French and EU political power (through EU unity). This is some serious stuff. If France wants to pretend like it has the moral high ground, it better start acting like a big boy.

Side-note: as for France not participating(specifically on a military level). Their military power is nominal and not needed in Iraq. The only thing "unique" about their policial positioning is they cant have a military position, because they have almost no military to speak of. I do think France should atleast obstain, if not support the war(but they probably wont). I&#39;ve said it before, France is against this war for the wrong reasons. And when its all over, France is going to look very bad.

You speak the truth&#33;&#33;&#33; And for all those people crying about
"How come USA has to be the one to handle these situations"

Well; who else&#33;&#33;&#33; Perhaps the French. Oh I think that would conflict
with their Iraqi oil deals. How dare they tell the smaller eastern european
nations to shut up when voicing their opinions. I agree with you when all this is all
over they will look real bad unless they wise up quickly&#33; By the way how about Chiracs&#39;
nomination for a Nobel Prize....What a joke&#33;&#33;&#33;

Also some of you out there would think differently about all this if you
lived in Iraq and you couldn&#39;t even voice your opinion by posting anything
here&#33; If you did you&#39;ll fear your ass would be chopped off. So for those people
out there. Enjoy your freedom of speech. Some people would like to have it too.
At least someone is willing to give it to them&#33;&#33;&#33; Peace [/b][/quote]

[sAdam]

good summary by maximboy99 and clubdiggler.

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by SuperJude™@25 February 2003 - 23:06
I can&#39;t wait for the America bashing to end, really.

Funny how people arrogantly accuse us of being arrogant.

Listen- people have opposing views.

It is too easy to look at one view and attack it. If you read something and do not agree then attack that view as "wrong" is that not in itself doing the exact thing you claim the other is doing?

That comment is aimed at the one person in particular in this thread who seems to be baiting us Americans under the guise of being "right" about everything.

Just your opinion bro and stop disrespecting and judging all of us here.

Discrimination is discrimination no matter how you dress it up.

-SJ™

I didn&#39;t say you were wrong in expressing your opinion - I said america is arrogant in its triggerhappy warmongering

[Zardoz]

Originally posted by sAdam@28 February 2003 - 07:29
rumor is that its on for late march, any1 hear different?

zardoz-

America, look at your leaders and the unaccountable organisations that are supposedly working in your best interests,
While at the same time sending you off to die in a foreign land for something that you don’t completely understand or support

i&#39;m interested to know where you are from. you have so many things about america fundamentally wrong that you should not be speaking about the issue at all. talking about americans being "sent off" to fight is ludicrous. what part of volunteer do you not understand?

I didn&#39;t realise the military in you country had a choice whether or not to obey orders