Howard Shipman Found Hanged In Cell

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Biggles@13 January 2004 - 21:07

There was no reason to assume Shipman was suicidal he had his TV and ordinary clothes back and was apparently looking forward to his birthday tomorrow.

You speak as though you consider his mind worked in the same way as a normal person.

It strikes me that he was not that easily read. I suspect his apparent demeanour may not necessarily have reflected his true feelings.

[leftism]

If he indeed committed suicide, the circumstance creates a bit of a dilemma for the anti-death-penalty crowd, if they choose to comment.

Their urge to blame someone, as long as it is not the good Doctor, should prove entertaining.

It doesnt create any kind of dilemma at all. It simply proves that death is the EASY way out for these kinds of people. This has been made quite clear by Mr Shipman choosing this option of his own free will.

Many of the victims families have been on national and local news expressing their anger.

They are angry because 5 years is nothing for ~200 murders and because they will never get to find out why he did what he did, and furthermore they are angry because he should have been stopped from choosing this easy escape option.

They seem to agree with the "anti-death penalty crowd". Death is an escape not a punishment.

[Biggles]

J'Pol

Quite true. I was speaking rather that there was no obvious reason for the guards to have expected him to do this.

[J'Pol]

Originally posted by Biggles@13 January 2004 - 22:11
J'Pol

Quite true. I was speaking rather that there was no obvious reason for the guards to have expected him to do this.

Or indeed the many people who must have spoken to him when these deaths were being investigated.

It just proves that to a large extent we see what we expect and wish to see. We do not see the elderly, pillar of the community GP as a serial killer.

Neither do we see the same man, happily looking forward to his birthday tomorrow as a likely suicide.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by leftism@13 January 2004 - 17:10

If he indeed committed suicide, the circumstance creates a bit of a dilemma for the anti-death-penalty crowd, if they choose to comment.

Their urge to blame someone, as long as it is not the good Doctor, should prove entertaining.

It doesnt create any kind of dilemma at all. It simply proves that death is the EASY way out for these kinds of people. This has been made quite clear by Mr Shipman choosing this option of his own free will.

Many of the victims families have been on national and local news expressing their anger.

They are angry because 5 years is nothing for ~200 murders and because they will never get to find out why he did what he did, and furthermore they are angry because he should have been stopped from choosing this easy escape option.

They seem to agree with the "anti-death penalty crowd". Death is an escape not a punishment.

Glad to see you still in tow, lefty.

I differentiate between those who believe the death penalty to be inadequate, punishment-wise, or have a religious or theological objection, and those who object to it merely because their heads are soft and mushy.

I would put the families of Shipman's victims in the former category.

[1234]

BillyFridge, I am originally from Todmorden and am in a similar situation to you regarding relatives. In fact I myself was delivered by Shippman's practice in the town. The true number of people he killed is probably nearer 500 than 200, but we will never know as he refused to help police after his conviction.

It is that which angered victim's families the most, and they see his suicide as the end of any chance to find out if their relatives were murdered. Some see it as an escape from his punishment of life in prison as well.

I differentiate between those who believe the death penalty to be inadequate, punishment-wise, or have a religious or theological objection, and those who object to it merely because their heads are soft and mushy.

I would put the families of Shipman's victims in the former category.

Even on a topic as serious as this, we can rely on j2k4 to adopt an idiotic position insupportable by facts. As one of the people affected by this case I still oppose the death penalty, not because "my brain is soft and mushy" but because judicial killing is wrong. I also see no "dilemna" as he took his own life, the state did not kill him.

Like I said above, a lot of victim's families wanted him to rot in jail for life - not be given the quick out of an execution.

[lynx]

My brother is chairman of Hyde Utd FC (a small non-league club) and personally knew 2 of the victims for which Shipman was originally convicted, being regular supporters of the team. He tells me I knew one of them, but I can't honestly say I remember. I wonder how many more of the other 200+ victims were also supporters.

While obviously this does not compare to the loss felt by the relatives of the victims, the premature loss of so many of it's citizens must also have a detrimental effect on the local economy in what is a relatively small community.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by 1234@14 January 2004 - 07:29
Even on a topic as serious as this, we can rely on j2k4 to adopt an idiotic position insupportable by facts. As one of the people affected by this case I still oppose the death penalty, not because "my brain is soft and mushy" but because judicial killing is wrong. I also see no "dilemna" as he took his own life, the state did not kill him.

Not to hijack or go OT, here, but:

Why is "judicial killing" wrong?

1234-

I never said your brain was soft or mushy.

I merely suspect it to be true by virtue of your obsession with seeking me out for your vitriol.

My apologies to everyone else here for any appearance of callousness; I am bereft at the tragedy Shipman has wrought, and wish with utmost sincerity that the victim's families and friends could see whatever end would provide them comfort.

I also sincerely hope my condolences are not cheapened by any further remarks by 1234.

[leftism]

Oh please j2k4, you used this thread to put forward your "the noble Right vs the evil Left" philosophy like you do with most other threads around here.

Originally posted by j2k4&#39;s original post+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4&#39;s original post)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If he indeed committed suicide, the circumstance creates a bit of a dilemma for the anti-death-penalty crowd, if they choose to comment.

Their urge to blame someone, as long as it is not the good Doctor, should prove entertaining.[/b]

<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4
My apologies to everyone else here for any appearance of callousness; I am bereft at the tragedy Shipman has wrought, and wish with utmost sincerity that the victim&#39;s families and friends could see whatever end would provide them comfort[/quote]

Your so-called "sincerity" is sickening.

[1234]

Why is "judicial killing" wrong?

Why is any form of killing wrong? If the state enforces it&#39;s will by killing people, why can&#39;t I?

However, judicial killing also falls foul of several other problems such as certainty of guilt and political interference at trials. If we had had capital punishment in the 70&#39;s in this country we would have a lot of dead, innocent, Irishmen. If we had it now, we might well have a lot of dead, innocent, Muslims. There are other concerns too, but those will do for now.

I never said your brain was soft or mushy.

You said people who oppose the death penalty not on religious, theological or on the grounds it&#39;s not brutal enough have mushy brains. I oppose the death penalty for none of those reasons, therefore you said my brain was "mushy". Are you trying to say you didn&#39;t say that?

I merely suspect it to be true by virtue of your obsession with seeking me out for your vitriol.

I will say once again - stop posting drivel and I will stop replying to it.

My apologies to everyone else here for any appearance of callousness

Apology accepted, just try not to do it again please.

I also sincerely hope my condolences are not cheapened by any further remarks by 1234

You came into this thread and insulted people, including people affected by his crimes like me. Don&#39;t try and pass that blame off to me, just apologise and leave the thread if you can&#39;t behave.