Gay Marriage

[Busyman]

Originally posted by hobbes+20 February 2004 - 20:55--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes &#064; 20 February 2004 - 20:55)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@21 February 2004 - 01:23

Who said I was ever eloquent? Fuck eloquent (as I scratch my nuts)&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;


Your statements are easily refuttable.

ex,
I can sprout all types of reasons scientific reasons about why people like the color blue. I can go as so far as to say they had no choice because at birth there was a predominance of colonic in their brain. As they matured (usually in the first three years) the colonic hit their visual center causing a bluish tint.

This is the reason they have a liking of the color blue.

It cannot be because well...........they just like it.
It&#39;s proven because of the scientific analysis of the last "20 years" and my personal scientific backround.

BULLSHIT&#33;&#33;&#33; (sorry if I&#39;m not being......... eloquent.

Dude I could choose to pound on dudes in the ass if I wanted to.
I don&#39;t choose too.
There are guys who have said they have neeeever been with a woman. Gay their entire life.
What if one had a woman ...finally and....LIKED IT. Would he still be gay?

According to your "pecking order" if he chose a guy, at any time, he was born gay.

This is why your argument is hogwash to me. It goes against common sense.
If their is conclusive proof that there is "something" physically different that makes me or anyone else want to slam guys in the ass or MAKES me want to be romantic with them I wouldn&#39;t hesitate too pay attention (regardless of my religious views).

Until then this has been a hoot and holler&#33;&#33;&#33;

Feel Teh Love baby

First off, I need a translation for most of that.

Second, do you throw away a whole bag of potato chips because 1 is burn&#39;t. You seem hung up on a rather trivial comment.

According to your "pecking order" if he chose a guy, at any time, he was born gay.

I&#39;m saying that a person may lead a straight life due wanting to fit in and be normal. He may date, he might bleep the prom queen, but at some point, like college, when family is not around and he is relatively annonymous, he might attempt to dabble in his fantasies. That is why so many people come out in college. Others push to get married hoping that will chase those "bad" thoughts away. There are many anecdotes about the man with 3 children who finally tells his wife he is gay and moves out.

Why do you think suicide is so much higher in gays. They have these feeling, and it makes them guilty because they have been brought up to believe them to be sinful.

So how can you say gays choose this lifestyle when most actually fight it because of societal and family pressures.



Not EVERYONE (wait a sec, let me scratch my left nut, ahh better) who has an encounter with the same sex is a sequestered homosexual, but, perhaps like Skweeky, they have attraction for both sexes.

I think if you consider people who label themselves bisexual, you will find true bisexuals and another group that this making an effort to appear somewhat socially acceptable. You will find that later they convert to pure homosexuality.

So don&#39;t get hung up on that one line, hope that clears up that statement and your balls don&#39;t get in a twist.

Talking about common sense, how do you explain a gay priest or gay animals?[/b][/quote]
Gay priests:

Many gay males trying to fight their sexual desires for males turn to the priesthood. It doesn&#39;t work. Their religion is in conflict with what they like.

Then there are some that are outwardly gay...well....I&#39;ll never understand that one.

Gay animals?

They male sticks it to another male because there is a hole there and it feels good?



Basically to sum up ALL your earlier comments

THIS MUST BE TRUE:

Through science, a test can be performed after age 5 that will determine what gender they will be attracted to. There is irrefutable evidence of this.

Thank you hobbes

[Busyman]

Originally posted by clocker@21 February 2004 - 00:37
their opinion carries no more weight than mine.

Duly noted

[hobbes]

American Psychiatric Assoiciation- updated in 2000

No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality.
Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based onmisinformation and prejudice.

Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality
.

Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual.

American Psychological Association- updated in 2004

Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges (note is says "emerges", NOT formed, see below)for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

What Causes a Person To Have a Particular Sexual Orientation?

There are numerous theories about the origins of a person&#39;s sexual orientation; most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age. There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person&#39;s sexuality. In summary, it is important to recognize that there are probably many reasons for a person&#39;s sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people.

I consider both sources less reliable than myself, but they have websites and I don&#39;t, so they get all the props&#33;

[Busyman]

Originally posted by hobbes@21 February 2004 - 00:59
American Psychiatric Assoiciation

No one knows what causes heterosexuality, homosexuality, or bisexuality.
Homosexuality was once thought to be the result of troubled family dynamics or faulty psychological development. Those assumptions are now understood to have been based onmisinformation and prejudice.

Currently there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality
.

Similarly, no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse. Sexual abuse does not appear to be more prevalent in children who grow up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, than in children who identify as heterosexual.

American Psychological Association

Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?

No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges (note is says "emerges, NOT formed, see below)for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

What Causes a Person To Have a Particular Sexual Orientation?

There are numerous theories about the origins of a person&#39;s sexual orientation; most scientists today agree that sexual orientation is most likely the result of a complex interaction of environmental, cognitive and biological factors. In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age. There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person&#39;s sexuality. In summary, it is important to recognize that there are probably many reasons for a person&#39;s sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people.

I consider both sources less reliable than myself, but they have websites and I don&#39;t, so they get all the props&#33;

I partially agree. I guess I don&#39;t CHOOSE to LIKE the color black.

I just like it.

However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality.

I&#39;ve said that all along

In most people, sexual orientation is shaped at an early age.

Agreed.

There is also considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person&#39;s sexuality.

Still significantly unproven also. AIDS was thought to be cancer many years ago.
I read a journal that has debunked many studies "proving" sexual orientation is something you&#39;re born with. I can&#39;t find the damn thing and I&#39;ve been looking since yesterday&#33;&#33;&#33; SHIT&#33;&#33;

I do remember one study it debunked had to do with scientists finding something in the brain that homosexuals had more or less of (I can&#39;t remember which).
It was debunked with evidence that a great percentage of heterosexuals had roughly the same amount...aww I&#39;ll shut up about it until I find the journal.

There was also an article in Newsweek that debunked it and pointed to it&#39;s source.
Unless I can find the article, it will be hard to find the source on that one.

In summary, it is important to recognize that there are probably many reasons for a person&#39;s sexual orientation and the reasons may be different for different people.&nbsp;

Exactly. The world is full of influences.
Also, some people may just be plain nuts. Who knows.

Again you like what you like

[hobbes]

And when they&#39;ve given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it&#39;s not easy
Banging your heart against some mad bugger&#39;s wall.

Pink Floyd- The Wall

[Agrajag]

Originally posted by hobbes@21 February 2004 - 05:30


And when they&#39;ve given you their all
Some stagger and fall, after all it&#39;s not easy
Banging your heart against some mad bugger&#39;s wall.

Pink Floyd- The Wall

Do you think your condescension is genetic, hormonal, learned or a mixture ?

[leftism]

Originally posted by Agrajag
Do you think your condescension is genetic, hormonal, learned or a mixture ?

Having reviewed this thread I would say its definitely due to the environment.

Some people are still comparing colour preference to sexuality and using that as proof that sexuality isnt genetic.

The reason people are getting so upset about this issue is because they think that if sexuality is dictated by genetics then you cant have free will.

Both of these things (color preference = sexuality + genetics does not allow for free will) have been dealt with, but no ones listening, so whats the point?

[NotoriousBIC]

Originally posted by clocker@21 February 2004 - 04:37
While all this chit-chat about why a body may be gay may be entertaining, what possible relevance does it have to the topic in question?

If Christian churches choose not to sanction a gay marriage then fine, so be it.

If they want to step outside the bounds of religion and try to influence legislation on legal marriage then fuck &#39;em, their opinion carries no more weight than mine.

As an institution "Christian" marriage doesn&#39;t seem to be doing all that well anyway, why should I pay attention to the efforts of the dysfunctional?

Here, here. My point exactly.
Only worded much better.

[Agrajag]

Originally posted by leftism@21 February 2004 - 11:52

Both of these things (color preference = sexuality + genetics does not allow for free will) have been dealt with,&nbsp; but no ones listening, so whats the point?&nbsp;

The point may be that other people&#39;s certainty, with regard to your omniscience, may not be as complete as your own. This may lead them to have an opinion at odds with your&#39;s. I know this may come as a surprise, but you should at least consider the possibility.

[Biggles]

I am loathe to get into the nature vs nurture debate as it would appear to as much a quagmire as most scientific debates on human behaviour.

I agree with RF. Whilst on a bike in Edinburgh I ran into the back of a double decker bus (which had stopped at a bus stop) because a very pretty girl was getting out of Triumph Spitfire wearing an exceedingly short skirt. Even her laugh as I straightened my handle bars sounded musical and attractive - no man has turned my head in this way. I find it hard to believe that someone can choose this path simply because it seems like a bit of a wheeze. .

However, whether triggers are fired at an early age to determine preferences (such as a liking for shoes or rubber or chickens etc.,) or whether it is predetermined I do not know. Nevertheless, once the trigger is fired it would appear to be permanent. The difficulty is in saying that someone is to be discriminated against for something beyond their control. Therefore there is an emotional attraction to the argument that homosexuals are just being difficult and wilful.