Gay Marriage

[Biggles]

Originally posted by Marius24@20 February 2004 - 00:46
I'm againt it 100%, though unsure which one to vote for (cos im stupid)


what happens when they want to have kids? They will have to adopt, poor children

I may be wrong here, but isn't a loving home better than being left in the orphanage?

Of course there may be no children in the orphanages because all the childless heterosexual couples have adopted them - or have they?

The only concern I would have is the bigotry the children might encounter because of who their parents are, not because the parents are unfit to raise them. There are those who would have no qualms about taking out their prejudices against innocent children.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Busyman@20 February 2004 - 01:29
Well it seems I'm a minority here.
Some things:

1. I am a Christian so of course I'm against gay marriage and civil unions.

Why should the Christian interpretation define what is allowable in our society. Unitarian churches don't see homosexuality as a "sin" and have the power to marry couples. Why should they not be allowed to marry gays, just because Christianity objects.

I'm against civil unions because it discriminates against heterosexual single couples.

How? Marraige is about a commitment which legally binds two individuals. Gays can live singlely just as easily as 2 heteros, if they are not commited enough to marry one another.

2. I view homosexuality as being wrong...keep in mind so is fornication.

That is your opinion, you are free to hold it, but I don't think others who disagree should be subject to your opinions. I think that as long as no ones indivivdual freedoms are being violated, gays should be allowed to marry.

3. I do NOT believe homosexuals are evil and should be beaten or spat on. To me they are just sinning and everyone here sins. They are still just doing something between two consenting adults.

By the definition of your religion they are, so this point is not open to discussion.

4. I also do NOT believe homosexuality is something you are born with. I believe you choose what type of PERSON you want to love...whether a woman wants a roughneck man or man wants a roughneck........man.

I couldn't disagree more. Who would choose to be hated by 9/10 people. Think back, you have had crushes on girls since the age of 3 or 4, you just didn't know what it was all about until sexual maturity. How many of you had a crush on your grade school teachers?

Most homosexuality is a learned way of life. Believe it or not most heterosexuals "learned" to be that way. Observe they way some homosexual men act. Where do they get this pseudowoman way of talking? If a group of guys were born together, lived in seclusion through adulthood they will probably have sex with each other. Were they ALL born gay? You like what you like as they say...whether you realize it at childhood or adulthood.

Keep in mind the "learned way of life". For children, the more something is around them and the more it is accepted, the easier it is to choose it. Imagine a little girl who sees the lifestyle alot. She won't necessarily choose it herself but it is much easier to do so. There are a number of women that I know from college that hung around a certain crowd and tried different things.

Ever heard of being "turned out". Imagine a woman and man are married. The woman, at the wrong place at the right time, has gay sex with another woman. She realizes that she wants to have sex with women now. She wasn't born gay. She experienced something new and liked it.

Gay is not learned, it is inherited, some atypical response of the brain to hormones. Most people who "turn" gay later in life were probably gay all the time, but societal pressures have forced them down the path of least resistance. Only later, once they experience what they have desired for so long, they appreciate their true nature.

Look, I can shower at the gym with nude men, I'm not going to get aroused. Physical arousal determines your sexuality.

Your men on the island may screw, but only because it lets the "steam" off, not because they are aroused by the other man. It would be a quick bend over and done thing, not something that starts with a candlelight dinner and tender kisses.

You bring some ladies to that island, then they will all say, "Oh yeah, that's what I want!".

7. I am not surprised by most of the responses here, seeing that most members of this board DO NOT subscribe to any particular religion but basically believe there is a "higher being" (some not even that).

True

8. Any Christian church or pastor who condones homosexuality is a hypocrite.
Even logically, one would have to rely solely on science to propagate when the opposite sex is equipped naturally.

We have got enough people in the baby business for this to be an issue.

9. If there is a separation between church and state argument is to be made then:

A. Gay marriage should be allowed.

yes

B. Polygamy should be allowed.

Why not? Who gets hurt?

C. Prostitution should be allowed (just pay taxes like everyone else).

Sure, why get thrown in jail for charging for sex, when you can do it for free without legal consequence.

D. There should either be all-in-one public bathrooms or four separate ones.

Works ok as it is, just don't use those isolated ones in city parks to do #2.

E. Gays should be allowed in the military (even if they are out of the closet).
There should again be 4 separate gendered barracks or all-in-one.

The military does not ban gays because of moral issues, but rather morale issues. I want the guy covering my back, not eyeing my butt.

I do not think all change is good. The things that are happening are very prophetic.

People have been telling me for the last 25 years that all the signs of the second coming were upon us. They just revise it every year to fit the new scenario. I lost interest in this long ago.

Well Busyman, we've agreed on things in generally, but on this issue, I must honestly, but respectfully, confess almost complete disagreement.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by hobbes+19 February 2004 - 21:27--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes &#064; 19 February 2004 - 21:27)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@20 February 2004 - 01:29
Well it seems I&#39;m a minority here.
Some things:

Let me first say you are nitpicking my post and addressing it in a "soapbox" fashion.

1. I am a Christian so of course I&#39;m against gay marriage and civil unions.

Why should the Christian interpretation define what is allowable in our society..

What are you talking about? I didn&#39;t say it should.

Unitarian churches don&#39;t see homosexuality as a "sin" and have the power to marry couples. Why should they not be allowed to marry gays, just because Christianity objects.

I am not Unitarian and again I said nothing of what Unitarians should be allowed to do.

I&#39;m against civil unions because it discriminates against heterosexual single couples.

How? Marraige is about a commitment which legally binds two individuals. Gays can live singlely just as easily as 2 heteros, if they are not commited enough to marry one another.

A civil union is not marriage hobbes so all of what YOU said has nothing to do with what I said. Notice before that I said gay marriage AND civil unions. Civil unions are a compromise to give homosexuals the benefits of marriage without it being called MARRIAGE. My being against civil unions is actually a catch-22: I&#39;m against gay marriage but a heterosexual couple would not be allowed a civil union so why should gays. Again, please read what I&#39;m actually talking about if you are going to nitpick.

2. I view homosexuality as being wrong...keep in mind so is fornication.

That is your opinion, you are free to hold it, but I don&#39;t think others who disagree should be subject to your opinions. I think that as long as no ones indivivdual freedoms are being violated, gays should be allowed to marry.

Who the hell are you to tell me because my opinions differ from theirs and/or yours not to "subject" them to it. I&#39;ve been "subjected" to differing opinion and have not gotten on MY soapbox to "speak for others". Last time I checked this was not The Pro Gay Marriage Thread.

3. I do NOT believe homosexuals are evil and should be beaten or spat on. To me they are just sinning and everyone here sins. They are still just doing something between two consenting adults.

By the definition of your religion they are, so this point is not open to discussion.

They are what.....to beaten and spat on? No....they HAVE BEEN beaten and spat on. I don&#39;t remember anything about it being done now.

4. I also do NOT believe homosexuality is something you are born with. I believe you choose what type of PERSON you want to love...whether a woman wants a roughneck man or man wants a roughneck........man.

I couldn&#39;t disagree more. Who would choose to be hated by 9/10 people. Think back, you have had crushes on girls since the age of 3 or 4, you just didn&#39;t know what it was all about until sexual maturity. How many of you had a crush on your grade school teachers?

At age 3 or 4 you also probably had MOMMY AND DADDY......and most of society.

Most homosexuality is a learned way of life. Believe it or not most heterosexuals "learned" to be that way. Observe they way some homosexual men act. Where do they get this pseudowoman way of talking? If a group of guys were born together, lived in seclusion through adulthood they will probably have sex with each other. Were they ALL born gay? You like what you like as they say...whether you realize it at childhood or adulthood.

Keep in mind the "learned way of life". For children, the more something is around them and the more it is accepted, the easier it is to choose it. Imagine a little girl who sees the lifestyle alot. She won&#39;t necessarily choose it herself but it is much easier to do so. There are a number of women that I know from college that hung around a certain crowd and tried different things.

Ever heard of being "turned out". Imagine a woman and man are married. The woman, at the wrong place at the right time, has gay sex with another woman. She realizes that she wants to have sex with women now. She wasn&#39;t born gay. She experienced something new and liked it.

Gay is not learned, it is inherited, some atypical response of the brain to hormones. Most people who "turn" gay later in life were probably gay all the time, but societal pressures have forced them down the path of least resistance. Only later, once they experience what they have desired for so long, they appreciate their true nature.

Look, I can shower at the gym with nude men, I&#39;m not going to get aroused. Physical arousal determines your sexuality.

Your men on the island may screw, but only because it lets the "steam" off, not because they are aroused by the other man. It would be a quick bend over and done thing, not something that starts with a candlelight dinner and tender kisses.

You bring some ladies to that island, then they will all say, "Oh yeah, that&#39;s what I want&#33;".

Goodness man&#33;&#33;&#33; By what you&#39;re saying, homosexuality wins in the pecking order. "If you&#39;re gay early in life you were born gay. If you&#39;re gay later you were born gay." What a joke&#33;&#33;&#33; I know something about this. I was with a previously homosexual woman for 5 years. We almost married. Due to your pecking order she was born gay. Explain bisexuals then with the hormone reasoning. Some people choose the lifestyle because it&#39;s convenient. Some people for other reasons. Also if the men on the island only know men then they will probably screw her too.......in the, as some you say, ARSE&#33;&#33;

7. I am not surprised by most of the responses here, seeing that most members of this board DO NOT subscribe to any particular religion but basically believe there is a "higher being" (some not even that).

True

mmmmmk glad you agree

8. Any Christian church or pastor who condones homosexuality is a hypocrite.
Even logically, one would have to rely solely on science to propagate when the opposite sex is equipped naturally.

We have got enough people in the baby business for this to be an issue.

huh

9. If there is a separation between church and state argument is to be made then:

A. Gay marriage should be allowed.

yes

uhhh yeah that&#39;s what I said

B. Polygamy should be allowed.

Why not? Who gets hurt?

mmmmk glad you agree.

C. Prostitution should be allowed (just pay taxes like everyone else).

Sure, why get thrown in jail for charging for sex, when you can do it for free without legal consequence.

mmmmk glad you agree.

D. There should either be all-in-one public bathrooms or four separate ones.

Works ok as it is, just don&#39;t use those isolated ones in city parks to do #2.

Why are there separate ones now?

E. Gays should be allowed in the military (even if they are out of the closet).
There should again be 4 separate gendered barracks or all-in-one.

The military does not ban gays because of moral issues, but rather morale issues. I want the guy covering my back, not eyeing my butt.

Some of my veteran friends didn&#39;t like bunking with them...and since the overtly gay don&#39;t say anything, they are not kicked out. Also why does your rationale not apply to women? They are in combat now.

I do not think all change is good. The things that are happening are very prophetic.

People have been telling me for the last 25 years that all the signs of the second coming were upon us. They just revise it every year to fit the new scenario. I lost interest in this long ago.

Well I&#39;m looking at societal change and not just disasters and terrorism.
You can call someone a bitch on network TV.
You can say fuck in certain instances on network TV.
Some see where I&#39;m coming from. The influences are there for all our kids to see.
The way it&#39;s going I only see it getting worse.

Well Busyman, we&#39;ve agreed on things in generally, but on this issue, I must honestly, but respectfully, confess almost complete disagreement.
[/b][/quote]
I still luh ya man but.......I ain&#39;t gay damnit.
.....oh yeah and I disagree too.

[Alex H]

Er, wow&#33; I agree with hobbes. Pretty much word for word.

[Marius24]

Originally posted by Busyman+19 February 2004 - 23:59--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman @ 19 February 2004 - 23:59)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Marius24@19 February 2004 - 20:46
I&#39;m againt it 100%, though unsure which one to vote for (cos im stupid)


what happens when they want to have kids? They will have to adopt, poor children

Actually the couple just being gay won&#39;t necessarily harm the child more than the child already has been harmed.

Imagine a foster child bumped from home to home. Now imagine that child in a homosexual couple&#39;s home who happens to have the financial resources and the love to give to the child. [/b][/quote]
and what would happen when that kid starts going to school. Imagin how much bullying the child would go through for having two mums or two dads

[kAb]

But isn&#39;t it better than not getting adopted at all?

Hopefully the bullying will end as more and more children get parents.

[hobbes]

Busy, (quotes were added to make post look neater- except 1 clarification)- I&#39;m not so sure that worked, but I&#39;m not going to bother undoing it.

After reading your reply I can see why you thought I was nitpicking. The post is:
1. What do you think of gay marriages NOT
2. Should gay marriages be legal.

I was assuming by extension that you thought legal marriages should not be legal, my bad.

Would it be fair to say then that you oppose marriage and civil union based on your religious beliefs, but recognize that the US government has no right to ban them as there is a clear separation between church and state?

The origin of the "civil union" was to give gays the same rights as heterosexual married couples but without using the word "married", which the Christian church feels to have proprietary rights over. It actually doesn&#39;t give the same rights, it gives less.

A homosexual couple cannot get married, a heterosexual couple can get married or have a civil union. Since a civil union has many disadvantages and NO advantages over marriage, why would they?

The actual quote

3. I do NOT believe homosexuals are evil and should be beaten or spat on. To me they are just sinning and everyone here sins. They are still just doing something between two consenting adults.



By the definition of your religion they are, so this point is not open to discussion.

They are what.....to beaten and spat on? No....they HAVE BEEN beaten and spat on. I don&#39;t remember anything about it being done now.

I meant that they are "sinning" by definition of your religion, not that they should be beaten or spat upon. They are going to hell for all eternity, that seems punishment enough.

Most 90-95% of people are born heterosexual, so they obviously win the pecking order. Since society supports these tendancies people feel free to express them. Those who are "gay" may suppress their urges, particularly in those cruel adolescent years, to avoid becoming ostracised from the pack. Gays are subject to the need to belong and peer pressure, just as straight people are. Only later in life, do they come to admit to themselves that they have been in denial and eventually emerge. Who wants to tell Mom and Dad that they take it up the butt and not to expect grandkids, btw meet my lifefriend Pierre.

As for bisexuals, they are homosexuals waiting to come out for the most part but some true bi-sexuals exist. In fact, given that some people have full male AND female reproductive organs (true hermaphrodites) what is "gay" for them?

What about Jamie Lee Curtis? She is a genetic male, but a looks like a female. What is gay for her? She has testes in her abdomen, but no uterus or ovaries. This is a result of a single gene mutation.

You see, homosexuality can result from a single malformed receptor that does recognize it target molecule. There are so many ways that sexual development can go wrong, it is no wonder that we have a huge array of sexual orientations. Most of us turn out in a way which propagates the species, but others come out a with their wires a bit crossed. These are not bad people, as you say, these people were born different.

If God decided to change the rules and said men should be with men and women with women, you might comply with his law out of obedience, but while you were with your man, wouldn&#39;t you be thinking about your woman. She arouses you, he doesn&#39;t? You are just faking it to please God.

That is what it is like for gays. They can either go through life "faking it" or give in to their true desires. Seems so unfair that certain people are born into a life and told to ignore their hormones, while the rest of us indulge freely.

Got on a bit of a rant there. Anymore and no one will read it.

[Wizard_Mon1]

hobbes:Gay is not learned, it is inherited, some atypical response of the brain to hormones. Most people who "turn" gay later in life were probably gay all the time, but societal pressures have forced them down the path of least resistance. Only later, once they experience what they have desired for so long, they appreciate their true nature.

I there a gay gene? How can it be inherited? ....Only socially inherited if anything... but still just because your parents are gay does not mean you will be..... You most certainly are not born with these tendancies.... because they are thoughts..... (i like this, i don&#39;t like that)... and thoughts are taught through cultural programing... through the set of habits built up by your parents.. then passed on to you through nurturing.... It is not inherent in your nature.... Babies react mentally to there environment.. if there mother treats them badly they will develop a subconcious dislike of mother figures.. and so on....

People respond to there surroundings in different ways, due to there past experiences... hormones can only exentuate a feeling not produce it... feelings are produced by thought... (that hurts) Hormones are not the cause... only a factor.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by Wizard_Mon1@19 February 2004 - 23:47

hobbes:Gay is not learned, it is inherited, some atypical response of the brain to hormones. Most people who "turn" gay later in life were probably gay all the time, but societal pressures have forced them down the path of least resistance. Only later, once they experience what they have desired for so long, they appreciate their true nature.

I there a gay gene? How can it be inherited? ....Only socially inherited if anything... but still just because your parents are gay does not mean you will be..... You most certainly are not born with these tendancies.... because they are thoughts..... (i like this, i don&#39;t like that)... and thoughts are taught through cultural programing... through the set of habits built up by your parents.. then passed on to you through nurturing.... It is not inherent in your nature.... Babies react mentally to there environment.. if there mother treats them badly they will develop a subconcious dislike of mother figures.. and so on....

People respond to there surroundings in different ways, due to there past experiences... hormones can only exentuate a feeling not produce it... feelings are produced by thought... (that hurts) Hormones are not the cause... only a factor.

Damn dude...I was going to respond to hobbes but you did it for me.

Addendum to Wizard_Mon1:

People choose what they choose because of free will.
A set of twins can raised in the same household, the same way, listening to same music but one can turn out gay...........or.........

they both can turn out to be straight and one like rock and roll and the other likes rap.......or......

one could be a serial killer.............

got me?

The social aspect: A woman styles her hair and cuts it to look like a man&#39;s.
GET IT. Like a man. Emulation.

Use a control: Would she style her hair that way having not seen a man?
Hard to prove using that set of standards but....she grew up knowing men like women...and.......hmmm...she likes women but she&#39;s not a man ....so she&#39;ll look like one. She may like being "like a man", maybe a cretian toughness. But in the end she may be femme in all ways, with long hair, wearing a dress but.........still like women.

Because........there&#39;s influence but.....

there&#39;s is no rhyme or reason behind free will in almost all most cases.

You can do everything in your power as a parent to raise your child the "correct" way but they could turn to drugs. All you can do is increase your odds.

Your not going to come in your child&#39;s room with a joint in your mouth and say, "A.......I heard ya been fuckin&#39; up in school&#33;&#33;&#33;"

There was a case of a male schoolteacher that had a sex change and was fired afterwards. I guess they should have let him keep his job.

I have seen many studies that show homosexuality as a birth defect as well as serial killers being born different.

I have also seen studies to show otherwise, so this born with no choice stuff is hogwash.



It&#39;s called free-will.

Now being born a crackhead..well that&#39;s different .


**GRAPHIC NATURE**
btw, Forget what you see on TV. Besides the woman I was in a relationship with for awhile, I can tell you alot of these so called homosexual women dabble in men once in awhile. These are the same women that will go to a gay club and live a gay life but sometimes..........they want dick&#33;&#33;&#33; The funny thing is they will keep it secret from their friends. One female I messed with said her friends would gag if they found out she sucked dick.

Is she really heterosexual but hasn&#39;t gone into the closet??&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Busyman]

Originally posted by Alex H@19 February 2004 - 22:43
Er, wow&#33; I agree with hobbes. Pretty much word for word.

As most in this thread do.


It makes "logical" sense or in essence it looks good on paper.

Let anything go as long as it doesn&#39;t directly harm you.

America should also give Native Americans there land back too.
What? It&#39;s only right and just.

I&#39;m black and I want my 40 acres and well........they can keep the mule.