Gay Marriage

[hobbes]

Wizard,

The post should have read "born" gay. Inherited might imply a gay gene, which is wrong. Remember all humans develop initially as females and through a series of timed chemical events the female "parts" atrophy and the male parts are actively formed. These hormones effect both the central nervous system and the actual physical appearance of an infant. Any timing or hormone receptor problem may cause the brain or the genitalia to not form as intended.

Nature is filled with physically different individuals, why also not individuals with physical and mental discordance?

Why are we attracted to females before we understand sexuality? I remember 1st grade. The girls would run around and kiss the boys and we would complain loudly as it is not "cool" to like girls at that age, cooties and all. But me thinks we did protest too loudly and would only admit this in private. The machinary was in place all the time to make us like women.

Why are we suddenly so aroused by women at puberty, some rational decision or waves of hormones washing over our brains. Hormones are the cause of this, not cognition.

I can totally change your personality by castrating you. I can tell you to have sex with you wife, but no amount of cognition will allow you to physically do so or mentally have any interest. You are controlled by your hormones.

As for your Freudian comments, it is true that an abused child may lack self confidence due to being called "stupid" and lack trust in others, but I can't see how this would lead him to want to get buggered. The child responses to abuse in the broader sense of self worth, this is not an issue of sexuality.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Busyman+20 February 2004 - 06:11--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman &#064; 20 February 2004 - 06:11)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Alex H@19 February 2004 - 22:43
Er, wow&#33; I agree with hobbes. Pretty much word for word.

As most in this thread do.


It makes "logical" sense or in essence it looks good on paper.

Let anything go as long as it doesn&#39;t directly harm you.

America should also give Native Americans there land back too.
What? It&#39;s only right and just.

I&#39;m black and I want my 40 acres and well........they can keep the mule. [/b][/quote]
Or infringe on the rights of others, that is the key.

We all agree that pedophilia is wrong because the child is not a willing participant. Even if he does become one it is via psychological manipulation. Little boys and little girls want to ride their bikes and play kick ball, not get sodomized.

I would never support a law that allows one person or group to abuse another just because they want to.

Adult homosexuals that marry are consenting individuals, expressing their feelings and harming no one. The true harm comes from the intolerance of others. Like those guys in high school who like to go "fag bashing".

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Busyman@20 February 2004 - 06:04
I have seen many studies that show homosexuality as a birth defect as well as serial killers being born different.

I have also seen studies to show otherwise, so this born with no choice stuff is hogwash.

Looks like both theories should be hogwash, no?

Why is one hogwash (born with it) and the other not (free will or environment), seems a bit of a stalemate.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by hobbes+20 February 2004 - 01:22--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes @ 20 February 2004 - 01:22)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by Busyman@20 February 2004 - 06:11
<!--QuoteBegin-Alex H

@19 February 2004 - 22:43
Er, wow&#33; I agree with hobbes. Pretty much word for word.

As most in this thread do.


It makes "logical" sense or in essence it looks good on paper.

Let anything go as long as it doesn&#39;t directly harm you.

America should also give Native Americans there land back too.
What? It&#39;s only right and just.

I&#39;m black and I want my 40 acres and well........they can keep the mule.

Or infringe on the rights of others, that is the key.

We all agree that pedophilia is wrong because the child is not a willing participant. Even if he does become one it is via psychological manipulation. Little boys and little girls want to ride their bikes and play kick ball, not get sodomized.

I would never support a law that allows one person or group to abuse another just because they want to.

Adult homosexuals that marry are consenting individuals, expressing their feelings and harming no one. The true harm comes from the intolerance of others. Like those guys in high school who like to go "fag bashing". [/b][/quote]
I know it sounds off but...how do you know the child is unwilling?

Do you think the 14 year old in the R Kelly tape was manipulated?(regardless I still ain&#39;t buyin&#39; his albums)
How is it that you actually know?
You read a study?
A female (not gay) I had relations with had been having sex with guys since she was 13. Some were in their 30&#39;s and upper 20&#39;s when she was 14 and she had no regrets even to this day even though now thinks it odd as an adult seeing the same thing going on with children at 14 years old.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If what you say about hormones is true, then there should be anti-gay drug on the market soon or hormone therapy.

Some hormones may drive you to like sex or be aroused but they don&#39;t make you like the color blue. You like what you choose to like.

You&#39;ve got women who have been raped in their childhood who don&#39;t ever have sex with a man again and only mess with women. Were they born gay or not?

I love when physical science tries to explain free will.

[protak]

By the definition of your religion they are, so this point is not open to discussion.

Oh Hobsey, would you please enlighten me with your definition of the christian faith please, I consider myself to be of the christian belief, although I certainly do not practise it as maybe I should. As a matter of fact if you can pull one quote out of the bible, where it say&#39;s two men shall be allowed to lay down together, I will not say another thing. Oh please don&#39;t qoute the Gay bible either.
I have to lean more toward busyman on this Hobbes, and not for religious reasoning, but because of family values.

Ide love to see you a minority and repressed by the rest of society. Then ill see your ass whine about wanting equal rights. Yeah it&#39;s pretty easy to pick on the little guy until you are the little guy. aint it?

Your very bright, I am officially a minority in my own country.......but you don&#39;t here me whining about it every time a camera is nearby.

And screw family values. You people need to stop reproducing already. Is it just Arm or am I the only one aware that the Earth is dangerously overcrowded and we need to reduce our population, not increase it. And besides, kids are worthless brats that exist only to torture their parents and ruin their life.

You are the moral fiber that is degenerating today&#39;s society, If you actually said something intelligent, I may listen. Why don&#39;t you go out with your friend&#39;s on a drive by shooting?

Cheer&#39;s
Tim

[hobbes]

Extreme trauma is not used to explain the general situation. Many incredible individual cases can be brought forth, but these hardly explain the commonplace.

[protak]

Fair enough.....

[hobbes]

Tim,


Directly from Busyman

1. I am a Christian so of course I&#39;m against gay marriage and civil unions.
I&#39;m against civil unions because it discriminates against heterosexual single couples

3. I do NOT believe homosexuals are evil and should be beaten or spat on. To me they are just sinning and everyone here sins. They are still just doing something between two consenting adults.

I was just acknowledging that Busyman had his beliefs, defined by his Christian faith, and that was that.

Although his faith is against it, does a free society have the right to "outlaw" marriage between to men? Do Christians have the right to outlaw religions they do not like? No and no.

As for moral fiber, gays will be gay whether you let them marry or not. Marriage is simply to simplify asset sharing and paperwork.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by hobbes+20 February 2004 - 01:36--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes &#064; 20 February 2004 - 01:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Busyman@20 February 2004 - 06:04
I have seen many studies that show homosexuality as a birth defect as well as serial killers being born different.

I have also seen studies to show otherwise, so this born with no choice stuff is hogwash.

Looks like both theories should be hogwash, no?

Why is one hogwash (born with it) and the other not (free will or environment), seems a bit of a stalemate.[/b][/quote]
Well no actually.

In this thread I&#39;ve mentioned, rather sarcastically, many instances of simple logical homosexuality. Nurture versus nature reasons.

All those studies did was prove errors and inconsistentcies in the report claiming homosexuality as a birth defect.

For instance, if there&#39;s a study claiming there is a predominant amout of a certain chemical in homosexual&#39;s brains that are not in hetero&#39;s, that should remain pretty consistant if those same tests are duplicated. If it doesn&#39;t then the first study is hogwash.

This same thing went on when AIDS was "discovered". The difference is that AIDS was OBVIOUS physical ailment. Doctors just didn&#39;t know what caused it.

Tell me this. If homosexuality IS a chemical imbalance or whatever, and it&#39;s been proven, why is there no anti-gay drug?

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[hobbes]

You make it too linear, it is not a simple imbalance at all. It is about how the brain was formed before birth, and how it responses to hormonal stimulation. It is a multifactorial event.

This would require gene therapy and not just one, but a multitude and they would have to be timed perfectly in the unborn child.

It would be as logical to think that a pill could alter these peoples sexual orientation as it would be to think it could remove your religious faith. They are hardwired now, just as you are.