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Thread: Madrid Terrorism/spanish Election

  1. #1
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Many are claiming the train bombings in Madrid threw the election to the Socialists rather than Jose Maria Aznar, who was expected to win.

    This supposedly indicates the willingness of the Spanish people (80-90% against supporting America in Iraq) to express their displeasure with Aznar's decision to join an alliance which included America.

    If this is true, it would seem to indicate the Spanish don't know what they're about; and I don't think this is the case.

    If Aznar was supposed to win big, and then loses big?

    Something else is afoot, I think.

    What do you think?
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #2
    It seems quite straightforward to me.

    The Spanish people were against the war and have suffered a massive terrorist attack because of their countries involvement in it. The Gvt tried very hard to make out it was ETA, because to admit that a policy that <20% of the electorate supported caused the worst terrorist attack in European history is not a vote winner.

    I suspect they would have kept this up until after they won the election and then they would have switched over to the "It was Al-Queda" camp.

    The Spanish people clearly have more sense than the politicians gave them credit for and rejected the Gvt for their utterly cynical handling of the bombings and for their involvement in Iraq.

    Put into this context a massive swing to the anti-war socialist side is not surprising.

    One more point, they didn&#39;t "win big", here are the results.

    Socialists won 42% of the vote
    Popular Party (former Gvt): 38% of the vote

    I don&#39;t think we need to look for conspiracy theories to explain this one.

    EDIT:

    I think this pic says it all, in case anyones been living in a cave for the last week Aznar is the former president.


  3. The Drawing Room   -   #3
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Originally posted by leftism@15 March 2004 - 14:53

    Put into this context a massive swing to the anti-war socialist side is not surprising.

    One more point, they didn&#39;t "win big", here are the results.

    Socialists won 42% of the vote
    Popular Party (former Gvt): 38% of the vote

    I don&#39;t think we need to look for conspiracy theories to explain this one.
    Any win by the Socialists in Spain must be characterized as big, lefty.

    You yourself termed the swing towards the Socialists as "massive".

    So, you&#39;ve concluded that Aznar would have lost anyway; interesting.

    BTW-"Something else is afoot, I think" is not so suggestive of a conspiracy, now, is it?

    Must you continually assign motivations where none exist?
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #4
    Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So, you&#39;ve concluded that Aznar would have lost anyway; interesting.[/b]


    No, I did not, if you disagree then please quote the relevant part of my post that led you to believe this.

    I attributed their victory mostly to the governments handling of the bombings. i.e if the Spanish had not been attacked then Aznar would probably have won.

    What would have happened anyway is that Aznar would have lost a significant amount of support. Considering that 80-90% of the population were against the war surely it was to be expected?

    To conclude, and to make my meaning crystal clear..

    Aznar would have lost a lot of support anyway, his Gvts cynical handling of the bombings made the difference, and it was a big enough difference to cause him to lose the election.

    Originally posted by j2k4@
    BTW-"Something else is afoot, I think" is not so suggestive of a conspiracy, now, is it?
    Well.. if you don&#39;t think the bombings were the primary cause of Aznar losing then what other alternatives do you have in mind? I thought you were referring to the election being rigged because there is absolutely nothing else that could account for the result. If you have an alternative suggestion then please share it.

    EDIT:
    <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4

    Any win by the Socialists in Spain must be characterized as big, lefty[/quote]

    They governed Spain from 1982-1996, they&#39;re hardly outsiders with no experience of Government. In US terms the Popular Party are the Republicans and the Socialists are the Democrats. Now, if one or the other didn&#39;t get in.. that would be big.

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #5
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Originally posted by leftism+15 March 2004 - 15:27--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 15 March 2004 - 15:27)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-j2k4
    BTW-"Something else is afoot, I think" is not so suggestive of a conspiracy, now, is it?
    Well.. if you don&#39;t think the bombings were the primary cause of Aznar losing then what other alternatives do you have in mind? I thought you were referring to the election being rigged because there is absolutely nothing else that could account for the result. If you have an alternative suggestion then please share it.

    [/b][/quote]
    My point is that:

    1. The Spanish electorate either was much less-than-enamored of Aznar than was assumed, and/or:

    2. They were struck by fear and awe of the attack to the extent they chose, in a rather expedited sense, to cast a vote they would not have, otherwise.

    That seems pretty straightforward to me.

    They would rather hand Al Qaida a clear-cut victory than give the impression they would resist terrorism.

    This last, of course, assumes Aznar would have won (as was apparently expected) in the event the bombings had not occurred.
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #6
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Originally posted by leftism+15 March 2004 - 15:27--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 15 March 2004 - 15:27)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>EDIT:
    <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4

    Any win by the Socialists in Spain must be characterized as big, lefty
    They governed Spain from 1982-1996, they&#39;re hardly outsiders with no experience of Government. In US terms the Popular Party are the Republicans and the Socialists are the Democrats. Now, if one or the other didn&#39;t get in.. that would be big.[/b][/quote]
    The burgeoning Spanish economy was expected to carry the day for Aznar, I hear; this is what accounts for the "surprise" of his defeat, and my characterization of the Socialist&#39;s win as "big".

    I did not in any way attempt to paint them as political neophytes, lefty, and I wish you&#39;d stop using that tactic-it doesn&#39;t aid your efforts.
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #7
    Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Must you continually assign motivations where none exist?[/b]


    <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4

    They would rather hand Al Qaida a clear-cut victory than give the impression they would resist terrorism.[/quote]

    As soon as I heard about the election result in Spain I knew you&#39;d be straight on here painting the Spanish as cowards or saying that they handed Al-Queda a "victory".

    What else could I expect from an opportunist such as yourself? You&#39;ve already been warned by a mod about this political opportunism in the "Spain Support" thread. It was the same deal with the Dr Shipman murders. There you were calling people opposed to the death penalty stupid, only to quickly retract your statements when you realised many of the families of Shipmans victims were against the death penalty.

    So here you are again... painting the Spanish as cowards who would rather bow down to Al-Queda than "fight the good fight" with you guys in Iraq.

    The Spanish were betrayed by their Gvt who led them into a war they didn&#39;t want, they were further betrayed when the Gvt tried to lay the blame on ETA in a cynical political damage limitation strategy. The Gvt suffered because of it. It&#39;s as simple as that.

    They are not cowards or afraid to fight, nor are they "struck by fear and awe". One only needs to look at the last 100 years of Spanish history to see that the Spanish temperament doesn&#39;t involve cowardice.

    They have simply chosen to fight terrorism in a different way. i.e not go charging around the world on wild goose chases looking for WMD that just happen to be located in the country with the worlds 2nd largest oil reserves.

    More power to them, I hope the UK follows suit soon. Let the US Gvt do its dirty oil grabbing work on its own. If we are to sacrifice our people in terrorist attacks and wars then I would rather they were the result of supporting a legitimate cause, not Halliburtons latest venture into the Middle East dressed up as anti-terrorism.

    btw, I would like to see you goto Spain and explain to the people there how they are "struck by fear and awe" and have handed "Al Qaida a clear-cut victory ". You wouldn&#39;t get out of there alive, hell... you&#39;ve offended me and I was expecting you to do this and I&#39;m not even Spanish.

    Congratulations j2k4, your machiavellian opportunism has reached an all time high. I suggest you get on the campaign trail with the rest of those snakes, you&#39;re &#39;talents&#39; are wasted here.

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #8
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    A year ago the Popular Party looked down and out. It was the relative quiet after the war and the slow recovery of the Euro economy that returned support to the PP.

    The bombings and the rather unedifying attempts to pin it on ETA, regardless to pointers to the contrary, that reminded a number of Spaniards why they did not like the PP. In addition Aznar was retiring and his replacement lacklustre. As in any election, the majority voted for the party of their choice come what may, as ever, the 10% who are volatile swing a result one way or another (unless you are Putin ).

    At the end of the day a number of people said "sod the economic recovery, I really don&#39;t like these people."

    The PP were instrumental in their own downfall.

    I may be wrong, but another increasingly disliked politician is Berlesconi. I am concerned that they may well be in the line of fire also.

    Edit: to remove the musical ambiguity.
    Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum


  9. The Drawing Room   -   #9
    j2k4's Avatar en(un)lightened
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    Originally posted by leftism+15 March 2004 - 16:26--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 15 March 2004 - 16:26)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    Originally posted by j2k4@
    Must you continually assign motivations where none exist?
    <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4

    They would rather hand Al Qaida a clear-cut victory than give the impression they would resist terrorism.
    As soon as I heard about the election result in Spain I knew you&#39;d be straight on here painting the Spanish as cowards or saying that they handed Al-Queda a "victory".

    What else could I expect from an opportunist such as yourself? You&#39;ve already been warned by a mod about this political opportunism in the "Spain Support" thread. It was the same deal with the Dr Shipman murders. There you were calling people opposed to the death penalty stupid, only to quickly retract your statements when you realised many of the families of Shipmans victims were against the death penalty.

    So here you are again... painting the Spanish as cowards who would rather bow down to Al-Queda than "fight the good fight" with you guys in Iraq.

    The Spanish were betrayed by their Gvt who led them into a war they didn&#39;t want, they were further betrayed when the Gvt tried to lay the blame on ETA in a cynical political damage limitation strategy. The Gvt suffered because of it. It&#39;s as simple as that.

    They are not cowards or afraid to fight, nor are they "struck by fear and awe". One only needs to look at the last 100 years of Spanish history to see that the Spanish temperament doesn&#39;t involve cowardice.

    They have simply chosen to fight terrorism in a different way. i.e not go charging around the world on wild goose chases looking for WMD that just happen to be located in the country with the worlds 2nd largest oil reserves.

    More power to them, I hope the UK follows suit soon. Let the US Gvt do its dirty oil grabbing work on its own. If we are to sacrifice our people in terrorist attacks and wars then I would rather they were the result of supporting a legitimate cause, not Halliburtons latest venture into the Middle East dressed up as anti-terrorism.

    btw, I would like to see you goto Spain and explain to the people there how they are "struck by fear and awe" and have handed "Al Qaida a clear-cut victory ". You wouldn&#39;t get out of there alive, hell... you&#39;ve offended me and I was expecting you to do this and I&#39;m not even Spanish.

    Congratulations j2k4, your machiavellian opportunism has reached an all time high. I suggest you get on the campaign trail with the rest of those snakes, you&#39;re &#39;talents&#39; are wasted here. [/b][/quote]


    Do you have any deductive ability at all, lefty?

    You consistantly jump well beyond anything that would resemble an appropriate response.

    Please learn to moderate your tone, sir; you&#39;re a bit of a harpy.

    Edit: BTW-Do you claim a Spanish heritage?

    Your defense of the election result, and defense likewise of it&#39;s "meaning", anent Halliburton, Iraq and the U.S., seems to have a fervor which could only be described as religious.

    I don&#39;t think they need your help, lefty.
    “Think about how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of 'em are stupider than that.” -George Carlin

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #10
    Originally posted by j2k4+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You consistantly(sic) jump well beyond anything that would resemble an appropriate response.

    Please learn to moderate your tone, sir; you&#39;re a bit of a harpy.[/b]


    My tone is perfectly appropriate given your offensive arguments.

    You equated electing a Socialist Gvt who want to withdraw from Iraq as "handing Al-Queda a victory". You are the one who is in need of moderation sir.

    As for religious fervour...

    <!--QuoteBegin-j2k4

    They would rather hand Al Qaida a clear-cut victory than give the impression they would resist terrorism.[/quote]

    Thus.. you believe that only your Gvt knows how to "resist terrorism" and that anyone who strays from the path your Gvt proposes is handing the terrorists a "clear-cut victory".

    or to paraphrase..

    "We are right and anyone who disagrees with us is not only wrong but is indirectly working against us by handing our enemies a victory"

    That seems pretty close to religious fervour to me.

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