Madrid Terrorism/spanish Election

[hobbes]

I think based on your personal involvment, that the attack is tragic and only those who were trying to go to work and who were likely against the Iraq War, to begin with, were made victims.

Had the attack not occurred, the election would have been different, some speculate. This indicates that the current regime was not all that bad, despite certain pimples on its face.

Since it did, Al Queda got to kill innocent Spaniards and oust the party they did not want.

As I said in post 1, if the election was going to oust the old party anyway the whole discussion is moot.

The crux of this discussion is that the bombing DID change the election outcome, the veracity of this statement I cannot argue.

But above all else, I will STFU as I can appreciate your emotion on the subject and keep my 3rd party objectivity silent, as now may not be the time or place to express it. Sorry.

[mrcall1969]

Originally posted by Busyman+16 March 2004 - 05:51--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Busyman &#064; 16 March 2004 - 05:51)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by mrcall1969@16 March 2004 - 00:39
<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes

@16 March 2004 - 05:31
My point was that Al Queda got what it wanted by killing innocent people, that was it. Nothing between the lines, a simple statement.

As for Spain&#39;s involvement in the war, that was the fault of their government, period. The US did not make them go.

OK, so you are saying it was the Spanish governments fault for going to war that killed 200 of their citizens (including someone that I have socialised with) ??

Just like if an attack here in the UK would be the UK governments fault, or GWB&#39;s fault int the US??

If Spain&#39;s involvement in Iraq led to the bombing then it is merely cause and effect. It is not America&#39;s fault nor Spain&#39;s fault.

If the voter&#39;s changed party ties merely because of the bombings, then they are cowards and gave the terrorists what they wanted. This will probably lead to more terrorism if a demand or threat from Al Qaeda is not met.

If they changed party ties because they disagreed with going to war with Iraq that is entirely different but unfortunately it makes Al Qaeda look like they are getting what they wanted anyway.

It&#39;s win, win for Al Qaeda

Lose, Lose for Spain. [/b][/quote]
HOW BLINKERED ARE SOME PEOPLE?? between 85 and 90% of the Spanish people didn&#39;t want to get involved in a war/massacre in Iraq. Because of their Governments determination to get involved 200 (and rising) people lost their lives.

Now if you take 85-90% of those people that&#39;s about 180 people the perished for something that they did not believe in, do any of the pro war on Iraq people think thats acceptable?? and have any of you met any one that has dies in the "fight for freedom"????? coz if so i&#39;d like to meet you&#33;


Edit: sorry for the spelling and grammar, had some bad news that this thread involves

[Busyman]

Originally posted by mrcall1969+16 March 2004 - 01:01--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (mrcall1969 @ 16 March 2004 - 01:01)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by Busyman@16 March 2004 - 05:51

Originally posted by mrcall1969@16 March 2004 - 00:39
<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes

@16 March 2004 - 05:31
My point was that Al Queda got what it wanted by killing innocent people, that was it. Nothing between the lines, a simple statement.

As for Spain&#39;s involvement in the war, that was the fault of their government, period. The US did not make them go.

OK, so you are saying it was the Spanish governments fault for going to war that killed 200 of their citizens (including someone that I have socialised with) ??

Just like if an attack here in the UK would be the UK governments fault, or GWB&#39;s fault int the US??

If Spain&#39;s involvement in Iraq led to the bombing then it is merely cause and effect. It is not America&#39;s fault nor Spain&#39;s fault.

If the voter&#39;s changed party ties merely because of the bombings, then they are cowards and gave the terrorists what they wanted. This will probably lead to more terrorism if a demand or threat from Al Qaeda is not met.

If they changed party ties because they disagreed with going to war with Iraq that is entirely different but unfortunately it makes Al Qaeda look like they are getting what they wanted anyway.

It&#39;s win, win for Al Qaeda

Lose, Lose for Spain.

HOW BLINKERED ARE SOME PEOPLE?? between 85 and 90% of the Spanish people didn&#39;t want to get involved in a war/massacre in Iraq. Because of their Governments determination to get involved 200 (and rising) people lost their lives.

Now if you take 85-90% of those people that&#39;s about 180 people the perished for something that they did not believe in, do any of the pro war on Iraq people think thats acceptable?? and have any of you met any one that has dies in the "fight for freedom"????? coz if so i&#39;d like to meet you&#33;


Edit: sorry for the spelling and grammar, had some bad news that this thread involves [/b][/quote]
That&#39;s messed up part about terrorists. They actually go after innocents.
In this case the innocents didn&#39;t want to be bothered with Iraq.

I don&#39;t know what you are on about with this BLINKERED thing though.

Spain has no choice now but to JOIN the war on terrorism, at least in their own country.

[mrcall1969]

Busyman, I&#39;m not going to quote you, it would take up too much space and I don&#39;t think you&#39;re worth it.

You clearly haven&#39;t read anything that anyone has posted, if Spain had gone with it&#39;s citizens wishes then they would have taken the sensible choice and not gotten involved&#33;

PS I&#39;m not some moral high-groundist.........it&#39;s like getting involved in some womens fight in the street.........it doesnt matter what you do, you&#39;re going to end up getting slapped, so it&#39;s better to leave it alone

[Busyman]

Originally posted by mrcall1969@16 March 2004 - 01:38
Busyman, I&#39;m not going to quote you, it would take up too much space and I don&#39;t think you&#39;re worth it.

You clearly haven&#39;t read anything that anyone has posted, if Spain had gone with it&#39;s citizens wishes then they would have taken the sensible choice and not gotten involved&#33;

PS I&#39;m not some moral high-groundist.........it&#39;s like getting involved in some womens fight in the street.........it doesnt matter what you do, you&#39;re going to end up getting slapped, so it&#39;s better to leave it alone

No offense dude but piss off...

I never disagreed with your post.

I merely stated facts about happenings AFTER the bombing.

It&#39;s also obvious that if Spain didn&#39;t go to war this wouldn&#39;t have happened. Now YOU read my posts again and come back (or not, I really don&#39;t care).

I said nothing offensive whatsoever.

I talked about Spain&#39;s involvement in the war and the effect. Nothing more.
I never addressed that 90% didn&#39;t want the war nor did I disagree.

If your emotional, go to bed, come back when you feel a little better.
Don&#39;t get worked up about an internet post that DOESN&#39;T even disagree with you.

GOOD NIGHT&#33;&#33;&#33;

[mrcall1969]

After the bombing? I dont&#39;t know what you mean..

I&#39;ve read your post and it really does make no sense to me.

Please do not tell me or anyone on this board to "piss off" you maybe don&#39;t take that as an insult, but we here do.

I welcome coherent debate, as most people do, but your post goes beyond that.

[Busyman]

Originally posted by mrcall1969@16 March 2004 - 02:07
After the bombing? I dont&#39;t know what you mean..

I&#39;ve read your post and it really does make no sense to me.

Please do not tell me or anyone on this board to "piss off" you maybe don&#39;t take that as an insult, but we here do.

I welcome coherent debate, as most people do, but your post goes beyond that.

Well you opened that up with your "I don&#39;t think you&#39;re worth it" remark.

Like I offended you or something.

AFTER the bombing you had an election.

Again if I&#39;m not worth it...why bother posting a reply.....piss off&#33;&#33;

[j2k4]

Being slapped doesn&#39;t bother me if I think I&#39;m right.

Marc, you and lefty both have made the mistake of jumping to conclusions that were not warranted, and indeed did not exist outside your supposition that Spain (as well as, I guess, the U.K.) had it&#39;s arm twisted by the U.S. to go into Iraq.

I&#39;m not going to put myself to the trouble, but I wonder if a search of our archive would reveal commentary by either or both of you berating the U.S. for involving itself in Iraq absent an adequate coalition?

I remember well additional posting (I don&#39;t remember by who) that, as a result of our "misbegotten" foreign policy, we would, and should be held responsible for every act of terrorism which occurred anywhere in the world.

My intent in starting this thread was to explore the event and it&#39;s ramifications; I find it ironic that the only respondent here capable of discerning my aim is another American whose political views are almost diametrically opposed to my own.

As Hobbes has very ably pointed out:

Any way you look at this; the bombings and/or the election, considered from every angle, is a huge victory for Al Qaida.

That is the bottom line, and no amount of quibbling over the particulars is going to change that.

I wish to extend to you my condolences and sympathy at the loss of your friends, but wonder at your ability to lay your grief aside just long enough to lay a guilt-trip on us Americans.

Lefty-

You just earned your way back onto my "ignore" list; you continue to further my impression of you as the Mediterranean Avenue of board members, which is just another way of saying that you are a small property-though, as a theoretical socialist of the first order, you are probably flattered by my capitalist-pig attentions, so never mind.

[mrcall1969]

Ack.. Yes or no who thinks if Spain hadn&#39;t got involved in Iraq, the bombings would&#39;nt have happened???


No the UK or Spain Governments didn&#39;t get their "arm twisted" in joining the war on "terrorism". The key word is "governments".

j2k4 and hobbes, come here among the lowly, normal people and ask them about the "war", I guarantee you will get a response that you would not expect or like, however much you think it is on terrorism, the terrorism is much closer to us than you.

[mrcall1969]

We&#39;re going nowhere with this.
But who thinks is Spain hadn&#39;t got invlolved the bombings wouldn&#39;t have happened??

And who thinks Britain is next, and not just London, try coming to Scotland and getting searched by armed guards before going in to do a job that is supposed to help people (most of them American)