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Thread: Wut Happens When We Die

  1. #41
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    Canuk is not coming back yet so I post this. GS, I guess our discussion is just too deep for other people, they are just scared away, lol.

    one more thing and I will not say more: if you are too insisting on your own, your mind can't adapt to anything more. first, you are interested in these discussions; second, you deny everything except yours; third, you have just a little study on buddhism, I might say, you were questioning it, it's good but not against toward it premisely and want to prove it ridiculous. It's the same when I saw your philosophy. (so now we have your philosophy, science, buddhism)

    I could not help for those reasons. it will not do you any good, I hope this will help.



    THE SCIENTIFIC OUTLOOK OF BUDDHISM
    INTRODUCTION
    Buddhism, that oldest world religion, is generally misconceived to be a blind faith. As seen from its outward appearance, really it is painted with a strong religious color. To a non-Buddhist, who sees the golden image of Buddha, and hears the chanting of Sanscrit Sutras and the clinking of the bell, Buddhism is nothing but idolatry; in view of their passive life, Buddhists of the Order are said to be “social parasites”. However, on the contrary, whatever is expounded in Buddhism, down to every minor matter, is based on the Teaching of Buddha. Indeed, some of the Buddhist principles are too profound to be easily explained and understood by the lay people, except those of high intellect. Without making a serious effort to study the issue in question, those who say what others say, and believe what others believe, that Buddhism is a superstitious faith, betray not only their ignorance of its fundamental principles but also their lack of common sense and understanding; therefore, in regard to Buddhism, what they say and what they believe cannot but be blind and untrue.
    Depending in what sense Religion is defined, Buddhism may be called Religion or non-Religion. If religion refers to Monotheism or Polytheism, then Buddhism, being non-theological, is no religion at all. If religion, broadly defined, refers to some School of Teaching, Buddhism in that sense may be said to be in the same category as Confucianism and Taoism.

    In the wake of the remarkable development of modern Science, the monotheistic and polytheistic religions of the world are open to scientists’ attack rather helplessly, but Buddhism stands out as unique exception to this. It is because the more advanced is Science, the more and the better is Buddhism understood. In the meantime, in parallel to the stupendous scientific achievements of this age. Buddhism spreads more and more to the world. In China, at one time some engineers and scientists were not only devout Buddhists but also conversant with Buddhist Scriptures. This is an eloquent proof that Buddhist theories can be tested and corroborated by science. In reality, the more learned the scientist is, the easier and the better can he comprehend the difficult Buddhist terms and the profound theories of Buddhism. Thus he would come to realize that whatever phenomena, physical or psychical, as explained by Buddha, far from being superstitious, are all based on Reason and reality only. In the light of this understanding, the writer was prompted to present to readers “The scientific Outlook of Buddhism.”
    http://www.purifymind.com/drfu30.htm

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #42
    Originally posted by caza@24 March 2004 - 09:30
    But it is also very comforting. What can be worse than a theory of life that gives you no second chance, no opportunity to amend the mistakes you have made in this life and no time to further develop the skills and abilities you have nurtured in this life. But according to the Buddha, if you fail to attain Nirvana in this life, you will have the opportunity to try again next time. If you have made mistakes in this life, you will be able to correct yourself in the next life. You will truly be able to learn from your mistakes. Things you were unable to do or achieve in this life may well become possible in the next life. What a wonderful teaching!


    (http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/qanda05.htm)

    my comment: let's forget about the rebirth or nirvana things, it is difficult to accept. there are a lot of other things in Buddhism besides rebirth.


    this thread is too long, I'll post the rest to the next thread
    That has been my point about religions all along, they are a product of fear. A panacea to hold that evil spector call "DEATH", at bay. A port of comfort in a cruel, indifferent world.

    The key is that you have to buy in to the fairy tale, otherwise you know you are following a lie and it gives no comfort.

    An analogy was made of the soul being emitted from the body, like a signal from a radio, and finding rest only in a receiver "the new vessel". How does this account for the first "soul" and where do the billions of new ones come from? I'm not even going to ask how a dead radio transmits a signal?

    It is a comforting thought, and too be quite honest, I came to the belief several years ago, on my own, that re-incarnation was the only possibly belief that is plausible. It follows the rule of conservation of energy and the obvious cycle of life and nutrients.

    I die, I am eaten by worms, they die and are broken down and a flower blooms in my honor.

    I then had to decide if a transferrable soul was possible, is there an essence (something extra-corporeal) to us. My experience is that subtle changes in human chemistry alter the personality of people quite radically. I began to suspect that we are purely biological.

    We all know the brain, but what is the mind/soul, where we say, "I am Hobbes and this is what I think and feel. I am working to be a better person".

    Philosphers have debated the mind-brain issue for quite some time and I think it was best summarized by Jean-Paul Sarte for me.

    When you examine a beautiful stone statue, you can break it down into the individual atoms that compose the structure. No one atom is art, individually they are nothing but matter and space. When you arrange them in a complex pattern, the summation is something possessing a property that no single component has. The product is more than the additive properties of the atoms, the complex interaction creates a new property called "artistic beauty".

    So analogously, the brain is a complex functioning of many different neurons with axons and dendrites, and the cummulative effect of these components working together create something more than the sum of the parts, they create the mind.

    So the mind is a product of the functioning brain, and not a location in it. The mind is the soul.

    So when we stop sending glucose (our battery) to the brain in death, the stored data is lost and the brain becomes a collection of useless axons and dendrites. Even if you send the glucose back in, all your thoughts memories have leaked through the cell membrane and your harddrive can never be restored.

    As an aside, notice that when I talked about the mind/brain conflict, I didn't give a link to a book and tell you, "it is explained here" and put the burden upon you to read it.

    So don't give me links on Buddism and science, you read the link, you synthesize the information, and you post how you think science and Buddism are harmonious. You want to sell you product, you need to do the work, not give me homework.

    The site did seem to be another one of those smash square peg into round hole to make Buddism and science appear to be in concert.

    There are books out there that claim that science confirms the Bible.

    So, I am more interested in your ability to express your thoughts than provide links to sites of dubious validity.
    Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #43
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    Hey, Hobbes, how come you're always beating on god?

    Are you the devil?

    If so, what can I get for a slightly soiled, less than translucent, once previously owned (by a careful Buddist dirver) soul.

    We can work a deal for the souls of my two offspring (innocent yet corruptable) providing a fifedom in Hades is assurred.

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #44
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    Originally posted by chalice@25 March 2004 - 02:48
    Hey, Hobbes, how come you're always beating on god?

    Are you the devil?

    If so, what can I get for a slightly soiled, less than translucent, once previously owned (by a careful Buddist dirver) soul.

    We can work a deal for the souls of my two offspring (innocent yet corruptable) providing a fifedom in Hades is assurred.
    lol, I believe there is a god

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #45
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    Originally posted by hobbes@24 March 2004 - 04:14
    You explain "bad luck" as penance for improper acts in a former life.  How absolutely simple and equally unproven.

    Care to make up any more fairy tales.

    If I am bad, I will get killed by bad luck in the next life.  Seems like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.  A 12 year old could come up with something better than this.

    Science has nothing to do with explaining anything about the spirit world.  I don't rely on it for anything more that confirming that the bridge I build will not collapse.

    Science cares not for proving , nor disproving, a God, but for predicting what will happen when I do "x" to "y".

    What does "there will be no human" mean?  As long as an entity is aware of itself as an individual, who cares what it is called.  You really don't have a clue what you are talking about.  You are a neophyte gobbling up the platitudes of your master.

    I was referring to modern western people attempting to find the "lost secrets" of the old oriental religion, I was not talking about the origin of this philosophy.  This fascination in "old wisdom" is much akin to the search for the "holy grail" or the "dead sea scrolls".  Many lives are consumed by the quest, a quest for nothing, really.

    As far as your edit, all of us are searching for "the truth" and we have dismissed your thought upon reflection of their merits, not in an effort to be mean.
    "Science has nothing to do with explaining anything about the spirit world. I don't rely on it for anything more that confirming that the bridge I build will not collapse."

    if science or Buddhism or other religions cannot explain spirit world then what else can explain it? how can we know the spirit world or if there is a spirit in our lifetimes? I'm afraid science can never tell us, at least not in hundread years.

    "Science cares not for proving , nor disproving, a God, but for predicting what will happen when I do "x" to "y"."
    i don't understand why you said so. Every formula comes after a thought which has been proved later. the process of proving is called experiment in science.

    "If I am bad, I will get killed by bad luck in the next life. Seems like the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. A 12 year old could come up with something better than this."
    I just briefly explained it, if you wanna know more, the explanation could be longer than the bible(actually the ideas of bible are borrowed from Buddhism,or to say properly, bible shows the lowest level of wisdom of Buddhism). I'll try to interpret this: depends on how bad it is, killing will go to a place where you can suffer(it can be expanded here, I'm just skipping them), beating someone regularly will get sick all the time in next life, however, karma could be changed, for example, you in your past life was honest and kind, you were born rich this life, but due to the internal force(your brain) and external force(enviroment), you may become a ingorant person, so your next life will be born poor. If you think and live like an animal and act like a dog, you probably will become a dog. just imagine the original spirit is a round circle, each time you do something bad, the strcture of the spirit will change, you do something good, circle become rounder, the rounder the circle the best result you will get.The world is complex, human is complex, how exactly the karma works only the nature and enlighted people know. anway, this is a good question.

    "You are a neophyte gobbling up the platitudes of your master."
    as long as you are not assuming I'm superstitious, I have no problem to admit this fact. at least I know more than you.

    "I was referring to modern western people attempting to find the "lost secrets" of the old oriental religion, I was not talking about the origin of this philosophy. This fascination in "old wisdom" is much akin to the search for the "holy grail" or the "dead sea scrolls". Many lives are consumed by the quest, a quest for nothing, really."
    so how about christians? are they rejecting western culture too? you are making excuses while yourself confused.

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #46
    How am I confused, exactly?

    What excuses am I making, exactly? I am agnostic, not Christian.

    Why do you think you know more than I do?

    When I post, I give my thoughts and the reasoning behind it.

    All you do is make vague comments, unsupported accusations, and link us to your pet site that supports your belief.
    Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #47
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    Originally posted by hobbes@25 March 2004 - 04:12
    How am I confused, exactly?

    What excuses am I making, exactly?

    Why do you think you know more than I do?

    When I post, I give my thoughts and the reasoning behind it.

    All you do is make vague comments, unsupported accusations, and link us to your pet site that supports your belief.
    clam down man, so you are saying I'm not reasoning, I didn't give my thought? the round circle things is my thought, cause and effect is and many other things. and why do you think it's reasonable to say Buddhists are rejecting western culture?isn't it an excuse to reject buddhism? I meant I know more buddhism than you do, sorry for saying it. It's why I posted the link for you know some introductions of buddhism before you argue this and that. I don't know why I'm arguing with you, I guess I'm confused too.

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #48
    Let me be quite honest with you, your ability in the English language is insufficient for such a complex discussion.

    I can't even begin to be bothered with explaining what I perceive to be mis-understandings on your part, particularly in regard to this "western" issue.

    I consider this to be a shame as I would like to "talk" to you in the language you are most comfortable in, so that I could appreciate the merits of your opinions.

    Alas, this is not too be, probably a loss for both of us.

    I can't be bothered explaining and re-explaining your misunderstandings of what I am trying to express.

    Take care, maybe in the next lifetime, we will be able speak more lucidly to one another.
    Aren't we in the trust tree, thingey?

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #49
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    Originally posted by hobbes@25 March 2004 - 04:33
    Let me be quite honest with you, your ability in the English language is insufficient for such a complex discussion.

    I can't even begin to be bothered with explaining what I perceive to be mis-understandings on your part, particularly in regard to this "western" issue.

    I consider this to be a shame as I would like to "talk" to you in the language you are most comfortable in, so that I could appreciate the merits of your opinions.

    Alas, this is not too be, probably a loss for both of us.

    I can't be bothered explaining and re-explaining your misunderstandings of what I am trying to express.

    Take care, maybe in the next lifetime, we will be able speak more lucidly to one another.
    hmm..., no one loses here ok, we are not competing for something.
    so are you going to your next life soon when I'm improving English? sorry,my bad for the misunderstanding. don't worry about it, I'll just watch ok.
    anway, you take care too. i'll talk to you next life.

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #50
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    I had rather hoped my short piece at the beginning of all this might have kicked of a small discussion regarding the nature of being at a sub-molecular level.



    Alas, it was not to be. It is interesting, though, that the more one reads the arguments for one particular or belief over another how they all seem to blur into one (or is that just me?)
    Cogito cogito ergo cogito sum


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