Microsoft Faces $618m Fine In Eu Case

[Biggles]

At the end of the day the issue is about market share. MS want as big a market share as possible and in all fairness to them they have also done their bit to increase market size too.

The EU and, indeed, the UK, for a long time have held monopolistic practices as bad for business and the consumer. I am sure there are similar rules in the US.

MS have taken a smack on the wrist for displaying naughty tendancies - however, they will not pout and say they are no longer playing. The EU with 25 countries and 400 million people is just too big a game to walk away from - and, as I said, it is all about market share.

[leftism]

Originally posted by clocker
I suppose that we can expect a major increase in the sales/installation of RealPlayer should these items be deleted?
Get real ( bad pun).

It worked in reverse. Netscape were virtually destroyed when M$ incorporated IE into Windows and that had nothing to do with the quality of the product. M$ simply relied on peoples laziness.

I think that sales of other media players would increase and it would also drive the costs of M$'s product down.

Just imagine this for a moment...

M$ is forced to release a version of Windows that is cheaper and doesnt have WMP. A lot of people will go for the cheaper option. Then they'll need a media player. They have a look around and try a few out. After looking at the alternatives, many of which are superior and some of which are free, they realise that WMP really is a bloated insecure POS. M$ is forced to lower its prices and increase the quality and security of it's software.

I don't think thats an unrealistic scenario.

[clocker]

Originally posted by leftism@13 May 2004 - 19:25


M$ is forced to release a version of Windows that is cheaper and doesnt have WMP. A lot of people will go for the cheaper option. Then they'll need a media player. They have a look around and try a few out. After looking at the alternatives, many of which are superior and some of which are free, they realise that WMP really is a bloated insecure POS. M$ is forced to lower its prices and increase the quality and security of it's software.

I don't think thats an unrealistic scenario.

Who is forcing MS to lower their price?
There is no significant competitor to Windows, so now you just the OS stripped of some of the goodies that used to be included.
So, let's see...now you need a media viewer.
Let's try RealPlayer, it's free.
WANNA UPGRADE? WANNA UPGRADE? WANNA UPGRADE?
No, thank you.
Hmmm, how about Quicktime.
WANNA UPGRADE? WANNA UPGRADE? WANNA UPGRADE?
Boy, this is great.

You think that WMP is bloatware?
Don't use it.
You hate IE?
Don't use it.
But why insist that everyone must cater to your opinions, no one gets these things for free anymore.

Gee, thanks.
Way to go.
Can hardly wait to see this Brave New World of unfettered competition that you envision.

[leftism]

Originally posted by clocker+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Who is forcing MS to lower their price?
There is no significant competitor to Windows, so now you just the OS stripped of some of the goodies that used to be included.
[/b]

We&#39;ve already been through this clocker. I dont want to be rude but please pay attention. If the EU get their way you will still be able to buy the standard version of Windows with all the "goodies" it currently has. The only change will be another version of Windows without the goodies, which logically will be cheaper.

There may not be a viable competitor to the OS, but there are plenty of competitors in the media player and browser market.

Originally posted by clocker+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
So, let&#39;s see...now you need a media viewer.
Let&#39;s try RealPlayer, it&#39;s free.
WANNA UPGRADE? WANNA UPGRADE? WANNA UPGRADE?
No, thank you.
Hmmm, how about Quicktime.
WANNA UPGRADE? WANNA UPGRADE? WANNA UPGRADE?
Boy, this is great.
[/b]

There are other options asides from quicktime and realplayer. Try VLC. Did you not know there are other quality free media players or are you just intent on misrepresenting the situation?

Originally posted by clocker

You think that WMP is bloatware?
Don&#39;t use it.

I don&#39;t.

Originally posted by clocker

You hate IE?
Don&#39;t use it.

I don&#39;t.

Originally posted by clocker

But why insist that everyone must cater to your opinions,

I&#39;m not. I&#39;m making the point that consumers should be offered a choice to buy Windows without WMP and IE.

<!--QuoteBegin-clocker@

no one gets these things for free anymore.
[/quote]

You don&#39;t get them free now&#33; Windows would be cheaper without them. You don&#39;t really think M&#036; spend millions on developing IE and WMP and then give them away do you?

<!--QuoteBegin-clocker

Gee, thanks.
Way to go.
Can hardly wait to see this Brave New World of unfettered competition that you envision.
[/quote]

Calm down

I&#39;m arguing for a choice. I&#39;m arguing that this monopoly is bad for the consumer.

Tell me... why are you so adamant that consumers shouldnt have a choice?

I am not imposing my ideals on anyone, it is you who are determined that people like me should be denied a choice just because you happen to like the status quo.

I still havent seen you produce one viable argument against the EU&#39;s plan and that rant was about as convincing as your flawed Ferrari analogy..

[clocker]

Originally posted by leftism@13 May 2004 - 20:34


Tell me... why are you so adamant that consumers shouldnt have a choice?

I am not imposing my ideals on anyone, it is you who are determined that people like me should be denied a choice just because you happen to like the status quo.

I still havent seen you produce one viable argument against the EU&#39;s plan and that rant was about as convincing as your flawed Ferrari analogy..

Lefty,
You haven&#39;t been paying attention to your own posts, nevermind mine.
Having already said that you don&#39;t even use IE, WMP, etc. you have yet to produce any evidence showing that your options have been limited by big, bad MS.

If you think that Windows, stripped of the add-ons, will be any cheaper than the current version, then pigs must be flying through a snowstorm in hell.
XP will stay exactly the same cost, MS will simply sell an add on program with all the things that they used to include.
And they will continue to dominate the market, just as they do now.

We&#39;ve already been through this clocker. I dont want to be rude but please pay attention.

I just love being patronized.
Please keep it up.

[leftism]

Originally posted by clocker+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Lefty,
You haven&#39;t been paying attention to your own posts, nevermind mine.
Having already said that you don&#39;t even use IE, WMP, etc. you have yet to produce any evidence showing that your options have been limited by big, bad MS.[/b]

Look at what happened to Netscape. Isn&#39;t that evidence of the damage M&#036;&#39;s monopoly causes to superior products? I&#39;m also a little more tech savvy than your average middle aged "just bought a stupidly overpriced PC from PC World for the family" user. Just because it doesn&#39;t affect me personally, it doesn&#39;t mean the point is invalid.

If XP doesn&#39;t come with WMP then people will have to look for a media player. All these people aren&#39;t going to choose WMP, which they&#39;ll have to pay for separately. Therefore M&#036; will lose a significant share of the media player market due to consumer choice. It&#39;s common sense to expect this to happen.

Originally posted by clocker+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If you think that Windows, stripped of the add-ons, will be any cheaper than the current version, then pigs must be flying through a snowstorm in hell.
XP will stay exactly the same cost, MS will simply sell an add on program with all the things that they used to include.[/b]

Well, if they want to try and sell a product with less content for the same price I guess the EU will just have to start kicking their arse in that area as well.

<!--QuoteBegin-clocker@
<!--QuoteBegin-leftism

We&#39;ve already been through this clocker. I dont want to be rude but please pay attention.
[/quote]

I just love being patronized.
Please keep it up.
[/quote]

You brought up the same argument twice and I had to provide you with the same factual answer twice. (and you accuse me of not reading posts&#33 What kind of response did you expect?

Monopolies are not good for consumers, they never have been and they never will be. They stifle competition and keep prices at an artificially high level. I thought this was standard economic theory, not a controversial opinion.

[clocker]

Well, if they want to try and sell a product with less content for the same price I guess the EU will just have to start kicking their arse in that area as well.

Oh really.
The EU has the power to determine a fair content/ price ratio for products sold in their jurisdiction?

Look at what happened to Netscape. Isn&#39;t that evidence of the damage M&#036;&#39;s monopoly causes to superior products? I&#39;m also a little more tech savvy than your average middle aged "just bought a stupidly overpriced PC from PC World for the family" user. Just because it doesn&#39;t affect me personally, it doesn&#39;t mean the point is invalid.

If Netscape was as demonstrably superior as you claim it would still be around.
Why is it&#39;s demise a byproduct of MS and it&#39;s terribly unfair business practices instead of the natural result of the capitalist system?
The Tucker was light years ahead of other cars of it&#39;s era, yet it didn&#39;t survive the free market.
Stupid public kept buying Fords for some reason.
Too bad the EU wasn&#39;t around then to save us from what we wanted.

You brought up the same argument twice and I had to provide you with the same factual answer twice. (and you accuse me of not reading posts&#33 What kind of response did you expect?

Lefty, at some point in the future you will realize that simply because you post an answer it does not automatically become " factual".
You have, as have I, been posting opinions.
The fact that neither of us has been able to convince the other of our opinion&#39;s inherent rightness should surprise no one.

I still don&#39;t get it and you&#39;re clearly not the one to enlighten me.
Nice try though.

[Rat Faced]

The EU has the power to determine a fair content/ price ratio for products sold in their jurisdiction?

Yes; although that option has seldom, if ever, been used. The threat has always sufficed.

Why is it&#39;s demise a byproduct of MS and it&#39;s terribly unfair business practices instead of the natural result of the capitalist system?

Arent these one and the same thing?

Europe is like the USA, in that its generally a market lead economy.

In Europe however; people are, generally, more important than Companies... so we have yet to travel the Capitalist route as far as yourselves.

This is not to say it wont happen.

The Governemnts have a duty to look after their people&#39;s rights. They recognise that most people are lazy and stupid. They therefore make laws to protect the consumer. It doesnt matter what country the "Companies" from, it breaks the law it pays the price.

Unfortunately we see Companies having more and more "influence" with Government, this is not necessarily a good thing.



One thing that cant be claimed here is that its "Protectionism", something that occurs in the USA regarding European Goods. Is this fairer than what the EU are doing to MS?

For example Steel... The "Market" was that European Steel was being bought as it was cheaper. The answer was to arbitrarily put extra Import Taxes on it to protect US companies.

[leftism]

Originally posted by clocker+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If Netscape was as demonstrably superior as you claim it would still be around.[/b]

Do a little research on the topic clocker. This is not the case at all. This is the whole point of the EU exercise.

Originally posted by clocker+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (clocker)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Why is it&#39;s demise a byproduct of MS and it&#39;s terribly unfair business practices instead of the natural result of the capitalist system?[/b]

Because... Netscape didn&#39;t die out due to it&#39;s quality. It died because people just accepted IE because it came with Windows. This is the crux of the matter. I thought everyone involved in this debate understood this.

<!--QuoteBegin-clocker@
<!--QuoteBegin-leftism
&nbsp;
You brought up the same argument twice and I had to provide you with the same factual answer twice. (and you accuse me of not reading posts&#33 What kind of response did you expect?[/quote]


Lefty, at some point in the future you will realize that simply because you post an answer it does not automatically become " factual".
You have, as have I, been posting opinions.
[/quote]

Wrong.

You asked twice why we should have a Windows without all the goodies. Twice I had to tell you that the EU is asking for M&#036; to produce 2 versions. Not get rid of Windows as we know it.

This is fact.

This is not opinion.

This is the 3rd time I&#39;ve had to explain this to you, will there be a 4th?

My argument is backed up with accepted economic theory. You&#39;re arguing that you are right, M&#036;&#39;s monopoly is a good thing and that standard economic theory is incorrect.

[Rat Faced]

Yep...

But im talking "Extra" taxes to increase prices and protect US companies.

No country would argue that other countries shouldnt have normal import duties.. to selectively choose some to make higher, is protectionism.







Well actually, i would argue against Import Duties of all types. I am quite willing to buy smuggled stuff, as long as its a legal product in its own right.

The products are already taxed in the shops, Import Duty is a form of extortion in my opinion, that stifles the Market and scews the results...

As with Copyright Law, i have no sympathy with Import Duty...and as such break it as much as possible without getting caught