What A Freedom... What A Democracy

[Peace]

Why when president W Bush wants to say any thing he start to push freedom in between, or if he want to make some action he says that he is fighting terror some where, and when ever he is doing something he start saying: this is for freedom and for peace and democracy. I can’t convince my self that the whole world is complaining from unfairness. And the whole world was in darkness until g.w.bush became president.

Why when one of the channels starts to show something against what he or his government talking about (which could be true or another opinion) he starts to accuse them that they are Terrorists...which is very easy and very powerful those days … is this democracy?!!

Now after the old regime felled. What does us is doing in Iraq??? This week only 700 people where killed according to the military spokesman 78 of them are children below 10 years 162 of them are women and the majority of the others are from the old people… is this the democracy and the freedom that he is talking about. It’s the Iraqi people them selves who don’t want to have the Americans there.

One of my friends who is working as a reporter for one of the TVs told me that we are not suppose to say this on TV, but in the last week only more than 160 soldiers were died, 16 helicopters were shoot down, more than 55 fuel tanks for the us military we bombed, and undetermined number of tanks and armored carriers were destroyed … I am sure if such thing get out to TV the us gov. will start accusing that TV channel that its supporting the old regime.

No one can say now that the US is in Iraq to free the people from the old regime or to fight the old regime supporters (because no one will support the old regime.. no one will sacrifice him self to support something which is not exist) … the US is losing heavily there and they are hiding that …there is a question here …why US gov. still accepting this …for the Iraqi people freedom ?!!!!!! …you have to answer it.

[Busyman]

.........and the propaganda machine keeps turning..............

[fred devliegher]

but in the last week only more than 160 soldiers were died, 16 helicopters were shoot down, more than 55 fuel tanks for the us military we bombed, and undetermined number of tanks and armored carriers were destroyed …

Care to back those numbers up in any way, shape or form ? I'm always a bit weary about FOAF stories.

For the record, I am and always have been against the war. A lot of people saw this coming - Hollywood doesn't really translate to real life, people aren't always happy when US soldiers show up.

But this kind of unfounded propaganda and Bush-bashing isn't really helping the cause. Instead of pointing fingers, why not focus on the problem at hand - getting Iraq back on it's feet, to stop the fighting and find a way - if it still exists - to help the people who suffer from this mess; Iraqi's and Americans alike.

Just my $0.02.

[ahctlucabbuS]

I agree with the above post. I never was supportive of the war, but they can´t back out now. They need to finish what they started, or even better get USA out and the more neutral UN organ in. The presence of US soldiers only cause uproar in the Iraqi population, so a more neutral organ sounds sensible!

The numbers seem to be 87 US soldiers killed so far in April (which makes the cassualties higher than the invasion), and 880 Iraqi killed during the first two weeks of april. (taken from a norwegian paper)

[Peace]

Barky Posted on 14 April 2004 - 14:03
Care to back those numbers up in any way,

all what u see is from reporters in the ground... there 2 is arabic sources that u can get ... i stayed at an arabic country for about 10 years i know how to speak and to read arabic ... the reporters told me its not allowed to broadcast this info. in TVz otherwise we will be kicked off ...if any one here can read arabic i will give him the link to see ...most of the news there were gathered by a profissional reporters.



i was going to upload some images that i have for iraqi ppl being abused so much to see what type of freedom US are bringing to iraq thats why when the ppl discovered the truth the fight them.


the ppl were expicting something good from US ... but after they found that they are the hill it self they start to fight the US army there

[Busyman]

Originally posted by Peace@14 April 2004 - 13:06

Barky Posted on 14 April 2004 - 14:03
Care to back those numbers up in any way,

all what u see is from reporters in the ground... there 2 is arabic sources that u can get ... i stayed at an arabic country for about 10 years i know how to speak and to read arabic ... the reporters told me its not allowed to broadcast this info. in TVz otherwise we will be kicked off ...if any one here can read arabic i will give him the link to see ...most of the news there were gathered by a profissional reporters.



i was going to upload some images that i have for iraqi ppl being abused so much to see what type of freedom US are bringing to iraq thats why when the ppl discovered the truth the fight them.


the ppl were expicting something good from US ... but after they found that they are the hill it self they start to fight the US army there

It seems that some soldiers are afraid of being shot in back by a masquerading friendly Iraqi.

You are saying that the friendlies are not friendlies due because of our abuse, yet the guerrilla tactics have been used since major fighting stopped.

Seems like a paradox.

For instance, there was a situation in which an Iraqi boy was on rooftop with a gun.
There were troops below on the ground. The boy was shot.
The parents were obviously pissed.

Now reverse it. The boy shoots 3 soldiers and gets away.

I guess that was better.

This reminds of the hood.

One of your boys tries to rob a guy on the street or murder him.
The guy shoots your boy dead yet you vow revenge. What for?

Some logic is order.

[J'Pol]

As I recall no-one is saying that the new regime has to be a democracy. Indeed in the timetable for handover of power, which Mr Bush has said he will adhere to, there is no prospect of a democratically elected government. There may never be. The people of Iraq will decide that.

With regard to whether the people want the US there, the pictures just now are of the rebels fighting against the US. However how many people actually support the rebels ahead of the US. It is hardly surprising that it looks as if the people want the US out. The people who want this are the ones with the guns and rockets. I am not convinced they talk for the majority.

Whatever the position, the coalition cannot really leave until there is some form of Iraqi Government, whether transitional or permanent. Then that Government can decide how much, if any support they require from the U.S. and it's allies.

[Biggles]

Saddam is gone. For better or worse (but mainly better I think) the Iraqis will have to sort out some new governmental structures.

I am sure that the US and certainly the vast majority of the US people would like to see their troops home now.

There is propaganda from both sides. This is inevitable and the US led coalition will try to minimise the credence given to the insurgents as these things can develop a life of their own if fanned the right way. The facts and figures of a war are never really known until after the shooting has finished. A lot of people have died and the US and the Iraqis have lost a lot of equipment and houses. Damage has been done to both the peace and the IGC.

The US military have perhaps over-stated the lack of civilian casaulties and this may come back to haunt them. The insurgants are gretting street wise and although there was a news black out on the actions taken they appeared to have taken a lot of footage themselves. I certainly have seen dead and dying women and children on TV. Given that the insurgents are inside shooting out and the US outside shooting in, this is hardly surprising and probably explains the extremely extended ceasefire under way at the moment. Likewise the scale of the insurgency is probably broader than expected. It is not credible that "a few thugs" could hold out against tanks, helicopters and gunships backed up by thousands of US soldiers. There are clearly many hundreds perhaps thousands firing back and taking up arms.

However, there is no option - this must be recovered. It would seem that few that are fighting want Saddam back. So what do they want? Do we really know (do they know?)

I may be wrong but I think the IGC has too many exiles parachuted in and not enough of those who struggled through Saddam's regime in Iraq. Sadr may be a hot head but his father stood up to Saddam and paid with his life. Sadr may, with some justification, feel he has something to say. Iraq is a complicated place and I will be surprised if any one template will ease them into peaceful co-existence. However, if we hang our hat on anyone group or voice without paying attention to the mood on the street then we will have wasted blood and money for nothing.

A slightly radical Iraq might prove a better long term friend than one we try to mould in our own image. However, I appreciate that might represent a brave political decision and politicians tend not to be too keen on those (whatever colours they favour)

I reserve the right to be completely wrong on this subject though.

[{SHELL%SHOCKED}]

Originally posted by Peace@14 April 2004 - 12:36
One of my friends who is working as a reporter for one of the TVs told me that we are not suppose to say this on TV,

Your "friend" sounds very spineless may be you should find some friends not willing to give up there 1st amendment rights for a pay check, Traitors !!

[fred devliegher]

Originally posted by {SHELL%SHOCKED}+14 April 2004 - 21:54--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE ({SHELL%SHOCKED} @ 14 April 2004 - 21:54)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Peace@14 April 2004 - 12:36
One of my friends who is working as a reporter for one of the TVs told me that we are not suppose to say this on TV,

Your "friend" sounds very spineless may be you should find some friends not willing to give up there 1st amendment rights for a pay check, Traitors &#33;&#33; [/b][/quote]


What the crap are you on about ?

You don&#39;t know the poster, his friend, the situation or anything. You just storm in here and make a bold statement without backing it up.

Damnit, ever learned to argue sensibly ?