Rantissi Critically Wounded In Israeli Air Strike

[putty]

We are agreed however, that as long as the Leader of Israel and the Leader of the Pallestinian Authority have such personal hatred of each other.... this will slow things down.

I think that Sharon is too often used as an excuse for Palestinian terror"... with Sharon in charge, Palestinians have no alternative...". But what about Barak? What about Peres? What about anyone else? It's not like the bombings started with Sharon in power.

What was the excuse when others were in power? Unfortunately the one common denominator to all Israeli PM's is Arafat.

I have said before; even if Arrafat did start a civil war by going after Hamas, then he'd lose it.

No leader will deliberatly start a civil war, especially one he cant win.

I disagree. I think that there's enough loyalty to him that would allow him to win it. Even with any doubt now, why wasn't it done 10 years ago when he had a full strong police force armed to the hilt and supplied with Israeli guns, as required by Oslo? Arafat truly made his own bed.

I think Israelis wish Arafat would pull a Ben Gurion wrt the Altalena.

http://www.recordonline.com/archive/...5/715colum.htm

In 1948, he gave the order for the Israel Defense Forces to fire on a ship full of fellow Jews. The ship was called the Altalena. It was carrying weapons for a Jewish resistance group called the Irgun, which was one of the groups fighting for Israel's independence from Britain. Aboard the ship was a future prime minister of Israel, Menachem Begin. He lived, others died. It's impossible to imagine now, standing in Sde Boker, how this decision must have weighed on Ben Gurion. The Holocaust was still ever-present in the minds of Jews. Israel was meant to be a safe haven for Jews. And now its leader saw no choice but to shoot at Jews. No matter what the outcome, no matter how necessary, this could only be a hideous tragedy.
  But Ben Gurion was the prime minister. He wasn't going to have heavy weapons in the hands of an independent militia operating in Israel. That could only undermine the new government. It could only put the army – which he had founded – at great risk. And in 1948 Israel was already coping with enough risks.

The only way to reduce the influence of the "Religious" organisations, is to show that the "Nationalist" one is getting somewhere.

What about Oslo that gave limited sovereignty to the PA? What about Israel coming very close to electing ultimate dove, Shimon Peres? Both these things brought more suicide bombings, not less.

And in the meantime, Israel has successfully created another Martyr.... well done them 

But really, what should Israel do wrt groups like Hamas? They roam freely, bomb indiscriminately, and brag about how they won't stop until Israel is destroyed. What will Hamas do now? Say that they really really won't stop until Israel is destroyed? Like we know, successful attacks have gone down the past year.

Bombers will get through. But ridding the region of people like Rantissi will only get everyone closer to peace.

[MalaDzen]

To be quite honest, that region will not have peace in the time being unless the Jewish people leave or the Palestinians do... and thats not going to happen..

The Palestinian people Do not want them there and unless someone wipes away these peoples memmories...Nothing Will Change !!

I hope that peace will someday come to Palestine but I dont think it is possible, atleast not in the next few generations. Hopefully the children of the future will see past the history between the two peoples and learn to see each other as simple humans.. rather than a Jew or a Palestinian

I come from Bosnia.. and my parents will always hate Serbian people for what they did to us but me and my brother and our children will hopefully help to change this path of hatred. I already have many Serbian friends and love them very much

I hope that this can also happen in Palestine..

just wanted to add.. many people will argue that the environment in which these children are brought up in, teaches them to hate.. but ultimatley I believe it is upto the person to decide to hate despite their environment just as I have decided not to hate.. If one wants to they can seek the truth rather than choosing to accept all that is said to them.

Peace treaties made between the two side, and Government leaders are one thing but what is in the hearts of the people is completley separate issue... and the latter of the two is the only thing that will bring peace..

May Allah (swt) make it easy for them

[nostalgia]

Originally posted by MalaDzen@18 April 2004 - 06:20

May Allah (swt) make it easy for them

And how will he/she do that? No offence, but in the last centuries, religion has claimed (in the name of God or Allah or ..) a lot of lives.
They should start talking to eachother a simple human beings without bringing in their Gods. The tension rises to high if He is involved.

[MalaDzen]

I agree, since the crusades and farther back than that blood has been spilt over religion and race issues but that has only come about due to people manipulating religion to their own advantages.

People use religion as an excuse to kill.. this does not mean that religion permits it!! And those people will be punished for their actions..

People have a right to their religious beliefs and "May Allah (swt) make it easy for them" is just me asking Allah to make this path to peace and understanding an easier one, without death or suffering.

Sorry that religion doesn't appeal to you, but please don't insult other people for their own beliefs...

[nostalgia]

I'm not insulting people who believe in higher powers, why should I?
Just stated a point of view which imo is one of the leading issues why there is so much violence in this world. And yes, people are using relegion for their own cause, whether it's moslim, catholic, hindi or whatever, but the people who doesn't do that should stand up against this.

[Rat Faced]

I think that Sharon is too often used as an excuse for Palestinian terror"... with Sharon in charge, Palestinians have no alternative...". But what about Barak? What about Peres? What about anyone else? It's not like the bombings started with Sharon in power.

What was the excuse when others were in power? Unfortunately the one common denominator to all Israeli PM's is Arafat.

I said as long as the Leader of Israel and The Leader of Pallestine hate each other guts.

So what is your point?

Do you agree with that statement or not?

The Peace Process in the early 90's was working until sharon unilaterally ripped it up. Its not Arrafat that did that, and its not the PA that was bombing... its the others (Hamas, Hezbolah), which Israel single handedly have created into major organisations.

Remember when you only had the PLO to deal with?

I disagree. I think that there's enough loyalty to him that would allow him to win it. Even with any doubt now, why wasn't it done 10 years ago when he had a full strong police force armed to the hilt and supplied with Israeli guns, as required by Oslo? Arafat truly made his own bed.

Yes, it would be nice if they had a civil war wouldnt it? Save you millions of dollars in killing them yourselves, without gettig Israels hands dirty.

Nice to see you finally admit that the PA hasnt got the weapons to win it now though...even if they did 10 years ago.

Arafat never made his bed, Israel made its own. They teared up the Peace Process and made the Pallestinians turn to organisations that were "doing" things, rather than sitting back and taking it up the arse in the name of peace.

What about Oslo that gave limited sovereignty to the PA? What about Israel coming very close to electing ultimate dove, Shimon Peres? Both these things brought more suicide bombings, not less

As I said, Israeli's killed Rabat, not pallestinians. The Pallestinians that wanted peace arent the ones that bombed..Hamas and Hezbolah did. At the time they had to work out of Lebanon mostly, as the Pallestinian Authority had the support in Gaza...well you turned that round successfully within one whole year of sharron's tenier...well done y'all.

But really, what should Israel do wrt groups like Hamas? They roam freely, bomb indiscriminately, and brag about how they won't stop until Israel is destroyed. What will Hamas do now? Say that they really really won't stop until Israel is destroyed? Like we know, successful attacks have gone down the past year.

Bombers will get through. But ridding the region of people like Rantissi will only get everyone closer to peace.

We dont disagree on what needs to be done with Hamas & Hezbolah. They cant be negotiated with, so you cant negotiate.

What we disagree on is the methods.

I dont see how creating another Martyr is helping.. all it does is increase the recruitment program of these organisations. This is not counting the collateral damage, and the increase of recruitment because more innocents or property has been destroyed.

Yeah, you killed 3 of em....and created another 100.

[Biggles]

The difficulty is that both Arafat and Sharron are swept by undercurrents that neither are masters of.

Sharron has offered withdrawal from Gaza to the outrage of the religious right in Israel. He is must oil the poltical machinery in order to ease this process. I suspect that he considers Palestinian blood the best lubricant in this instance.

Arafat, also must consider his position. There are many, possibly Arafat amongst them, that would accept the 1967 border for the two States solution. However, many Palestinians still hold the keys to the houses they locked and fled from in 1948. They are a still an important poltical voice in Palestine.

The Balfour declaration of 1917 was not the granting of Palestine to the Jews it was merely the opening up the possibilty of travel and settlement to that area for European Jews - an aspiration if you will. By 1935 only about 200,000 had made the journery and bought land in the area, There was little or no friction and the communities quietly got on with daily life. The problems caused by a certain Mr Hitler changed all that and by 1939 the numbers had trebled and most of these refugees had no money and no experience of the Middle East. If you consider the current hysterical reaction to immigration in the UK today and multiply it 100 fold then this is what caused Palestine to flare up into what we are all familiar with today.

I am not anti-Israeli and I don't think it is possible to turn back the clock, but the Palestinians who were minding their own business and had nothing to do with European politics really drew the short straw on this one.

On a happier footnote, I did hear today an Israeli spokesman say that the discussion regarding some of the West Bank settlements staying is not set in stone and that if there were genuine moves towards settlement all would be on the table. I hope this is correct. There are still Palestinians that want to see Israel disappear but most of the surrounding States now accept Israel (albeit at the 67 borders) it is time for everybody in that region to move forward. Yes the Palestinians will be the primary losers but the Israelis will leave behind in the West Bank a good functioning infrastructure and plenty of homes. Moreover, peaceful coexistence should merit generous aid to get a fledgling Palestinian State up and running.

[putty]

Rat, to be honest I'm disapointed in your tone towards me. I never attacked you or accused you, as you are doing to me. I'm discussing the issues and do not have ulterior motives. You haven't been like this before in these threads, maybe just a bad day?

Please stop insinuating that I'm Israeli. I'm not.

Good post, Biggles.

[h1]

Originally posted by j2k4+17 April 2004 - 18:33--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 &#064; 17 April 2004 - 18:33)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by haxor41789@17 April 2004 - 15:46
Now that&#39;s just wrong. I really expected something less ignorant of you.

How so, haxor?[/b]

You sort of missed the point of my post.
<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@17 April 2004 - 15:49
Funny; if one of these Islamic fundamentalists dies for the cause, he is considered martyred, and supposedly goes on to enjoy the company of an inexhaustable supply of virgins, or some such.

And now Hamas and their Palestinian supporters are upset because he&#39;s with Allah getting laid?

Sounds like a winner both ways, to me. [/quote]

[j2k4]

Originally posted by haxor41789+18 April 2004 - 13:40--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (haxor41789 &#064; 18 April 2004 - 13:40)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by j2k4@17 April 2004 - 18:33

Originally posted by haxor41789@17 April 2004 - 15:46
Now that&#39;s just wrong. I really expected something less ignorant of you.

How so, haxor?

You sort of missed the point of my post.
<!--QuoteBegin-j2k4@17 April 2004 - 15:49
Funny; if one of these Islamic fundamentalists dies for the cause, he is considered martyred, and supposedly goes on to enjoy the company of an inexhaustable supply of virgins, or some such.

And now Hamas and their Palestinian supporters are upset because he&#39;s with Allah getting laid?

Sounds like a winner both ways, to me.

[/b][/quote]
Ah.

Just pointing out the irony of the glory of successful martyrdom causing such upset.

Rantisi was targeted as a founder and current leader of Hamas, and also killed on that basis.

Were all the mourning crowds I saw on television members of Hamas, or merely Palestinians who considered Rantisi a Palestinian first, and a terrorist second (or not at all)?

If the Palestinian "street" identifies that strongly with Hamas, I suggest to you that something very basic is wrong with the idea that Palestinian and Israeli attitudes might be reconciled.

I still haven&#39;t heard anyone indicate proof the Palestinians have renounced the extermination of Israel and it&#39;s people.

Someone here said they had the impression "most" Palestinians would forego this goal if Israel withdrew to the &#39;67 border, or some such.

I&#39;ve never heard a Palestinian of any authority say this.

Arafat occasionally makes a conciliatory statement, but adamantly refuses to do so in Arabic.

Why is this?

Does he fear his own people? Hamas? Hezbollah?

Someone please enlighten me.