George W Bush

[hobbes]

Originally posted by vidcc@21 April 2004 - 04:45
Just a thought, would the same reaction occur if say j2k4 or busyman had posted the picture instead of Alex H (sorry for using your names but i needed a credible example and am not suggesting that you actually would post such a picture)

Vidcc,

The picture comes from Micheal Moore's web-site, you figure out the intent and see if it meshes with the one-liner in the first post.

And "no", I am here to discuss issues, not pick sides.

Perhaps you are unaware that Busyboy and J2 are people I argue with from time to time.

[leftism]

Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The picture comes from Michal Moore&#39;s web-site.[/b]

So you must have noticed the total number of dead underneath the picture then?

How can you say it&#39;s intended to deceive people about the number of dead soldiers in Iraq when the total number of dead is directly below it? Doesn&#39;t that count as "coming clean"?

<!--QuoteBegin-Busyman
We Americans also know that polls are bullshit. It&#39;s a pure media tool.[/quote]

So... the majority of the American people did not support the war when it started?

[hobbes]

Originally posted by leftism+22 April 2004 - 00:09--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (leftism &#064; 22 April 2004 - 00:09)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
The picture comes from Michal Moore&#39;s web-site.

So you must have noticed the total number of dead underneath the picture then?

How can you say it&#39;s intended to deceive people about the number of dead soldiers in Iraq when the total number of dead is directly below it? Doesn&#39;t that count as "coming clean"?

[/b][/quote]
No, because it is not there, even if I copy and paste the link.

link



But even so, it doesn&#39;t change the point I was making one iota, thanks for quibbling details and not getting the concepts.

Michael Moore is not responsible for the Iraq body count, the number is easily available. The goal of the picture&#39;s size and resolution was an attempt to manipulate the viewers mind. Wow, that&#39;s alot of people&#33;. They had to repeat people pictured, not mentioned either, by the way, to keep it from looking blocky and small. This might be "unimpressive" to the intended victims.

I actually had a somewhat supportive post about Michael Moore and Bowling at Columbine, but the more he uses stock response emotional manipulation, the more his methods turn me off to his message.

He shoots himself in the foot if he is trying to come across as an "enlightener". He is just a liar/manipulator, just like the other side.

[leftism]

When the picture was on the frontpage yesterday the total number of dead was directly underneath it.

The goal of the picture&#39;s size and resolution was an attempt to manipulate the viewers mind. Wow, that&#39;s alot of people&#33;.

I disagree. The point of the photo, clearly, was not to inform people of the number of dead soldiers in Iraq. The point the author was making (imho) is that Bush is responsible for all those kids dying in an unnecessary war based on false intelligence.

It makes me wonder though.. is 709 people not "alot" in your opinion? Does the actual number really matter to the point the author of the picture is making? I don&#39;t think so.

It&#39;s an emotional subject that is bound to produce an emotional response. It doesn&#39;t automatically mean the author is a "liar/manipulator". That would depend on the authors sincerity and their own emotional reaction to the subject.

Your criticism is so fierce I thought you were talking about Bush using images of 9/11 in his re-election campaign or the Holocaust...

[hobbes]

I still think puppy dogs would have been more effective.

I have got a few more gears before I achieve "fierce". Imagine if I were a Republican who actually even liked Bush.

Perhaps my new avatar and profile are a little intimidating?

[leftism]

Originally posted by hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I still think puppy dogs would have been more effective.
[/b]

Ah, so any point that makes people react emotionally is automatically invalid?

The 3 photos that Alex H posted show that this isn&#39;t the case. What about photos of the Holocaust? Do you classify them as "emotional agenda driven manipulation" as well? That kind of philosophy will land you in hot water with the JDL

Originally posted by hobbes@
I have got a few more gears before I achieve "fierce". Imagine if I were a Republican who actually even liked Bush.

You sure you&#39;re not?

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes

Perhaps my new avatar and profile are a little intimidating?
[/quote]

Terrifying.

Seriously though hobbes, you were almost hysterical for a while there. I was considering asking the mods for your location so I could send a nurse over to check your blood pressure.

"pathetic", " utter stock response tripe", " sappy statement", " attack on human emotion", "exploitation", "propaganda", "agenda driven emotional manipulation", "shit", " hypocrital", "manipulate", "lie", "deception"

All that because they didn&#39;t have a big sign on the photo saying "WE USED REPEATS". All that because the photo intends to make people have an emotional reaction to an emotional subject?

A slight overreaction to say the least...

[hobbes]

Nope, just pathetic emotional manipulation. I hate it from either side, it insults my intelligence.

And yes, emotional manipulation means that you cannot let the facts stand alone. We get this from those who are interested in propaganda and agenda.

Photos of the holocaust are "documentation" of what has occurred ,as people still say it never happened. The pictures were not used to create a picture of God crying or a puppy dog whimpering, in a photomontage. They depicted reality.

How come this is not obvious to you?

Are you sure you are not letting your agenda obstruct your ability to understand the obvious?

As for Bush, can you find anything, anything, anything, that would show me supporting the man? In fact, you will find the contrary, so why should you think otherwise, agenda boy? If you cannot support your accusations then STFU, as we are innocent until proven guilty. It is a ploy of the scoundral to make baseless accusations to undermine and opponent, put the suspicion of doubt in the eyes of others.


From Alex H:

To hobbes - Fair enough, you made your point and I agree with it - again, I didn&#39;t create the picture

I guess someone got the point.

[Alex H]

Just to remind you all, I said "What a sad picture".

I made no comment on whether doubles were used, the resolution or anything like that.

Its obvious that the picture is made up of the faces of soldiers killed in Iraq.

Again, perhaps the creator will be able to make another one in a few months without doubles. Will that affect the emotional response any differently?

[sampson]

Or maybe the families of the deceased didn&#39;t want their funerals to a media circus. Also, here&#39;s some food for thought. This email came from my parents next door neighbor.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

We received this from our El Paso friends who now live in San Angelo. They
had recieved it from their friend. Connie
>
>
> > :
> >
> >
> > This happened in Crawford, TX about 30 miles from here.
> >
> > I just wanted to pass this information along to each of you so you know
> > what a truly compassionate and caring man we have in President Bush.
> >
> > My first cousin, Shawn Kettler, and his wife, Suzanne, and daughter,
> > Laramie, lost their 6 year old son, Sam, in a drowning accident this
> > past Saturday (March 6th), outside Gatesville. They all live within a
> > few
> > miles of the President&#39;s place in Crawford TX.
> >
> > Sam and a young friend of his were walking around a tank when the mud
> > gave way and Sam fell in the tank. The tank is a spring fed tank, and
> > Sam was sucked under the water into a "sink hole" where the spring came
> > into the tank. His little friend tried to get him out but was unable to
> > reach him, so he ran about 200 yards to his house and told his
> > grandmother. The grandmother called 911 then went to the tank, but was
> > unable to even see Sam.
> >
> > Sam&#39;s father and a volunteer fireman arrived first and began diving
> > into the tank but were unable to locate Sam (I believe they said the
> > water was about 10 feet deep). The Deputy Sheriff that received the 911
> > call was at the entrance to President Bush&#39;s ranch when the call came
> > in. He told the Secret Service agents at the gate what was happening
> > and they, in turn, radioed the ranch house. President Bush told them to
> > "Go - take all the men and equipment you need and just go". He also
> > sent his personal physician and his helicopter over to the tank.
> >
> > Sam was finally located and pulled from the water by one of the Secret
> > Service agents (I believe there were 5 agents there all total). There
> > was a faint pulse but they could not revive little Sam. President
> > Bush&#39;s doctor began working on him and they loaded him into the
> > Presidential helicopter and took him to Hillcrest Hospital in Waco. The
> > doctors there worked on him for awhile, but he had been under water for
> > 45 minutes, so there was really no hope for his recovery. And, had he
> > survived, he would never have been the same.
> >
> > Sam was truly a unique little boy who lived life to the fullest. And
> > he loved the fact that "George Bush, the President" had chosen to live
> > so close to his house.
> >
> > When the family went to the funeral home in Gatesville on Sunday to
> > make the arrangements, they were told everything had been paid for by an
> > anonymous donor. After much "detective" work, it is believed that
> > President Bush is that anonymous donor.
> >
> > I just wanted all of you to hear this story so you know what a true
> > gentleman our President is. And I ask that you pray for my family as
> > they deal with this tragedy. And, lastly, please pray for our country
> > and President Bush as he attempts to hold it all in place.
> >
> > Don&#39;t ever forget to tell everyone close to you and possibly, some of
> > those not so close, how much you love them. Tell them everyday because
> > life is short and very unpredictable.

[leftism]

Hobbes please... take a breather... I would hate to think I caused you to have an aneurysm just by posting on a forum..

Through all the fury you made 2 points.

1. Any point that intends to affect peoples emotions is "pathetic manipulation" et al..
2. The author of the photo is attempting to deceive people about the number of soldiers killed in Iraq.

My reply is thus..

1. Any point that intends to affects peoples emotions is not automatically "pathetic manipulation".

Photos of the holocaust are not just meant to document a period in history in a non-emotional clinical manner. They&#39;re meant to make you feel emotion, they&#39;re meant to make you feel "Never again shall we allow this to happen".

That does not mean the point they&#39;re making is invalid does it? That does not mean the curators at the Holocaust Memorial Museum are "pathetic manipulators" does it?

According to your logic, if when someone makes a point they intend to affect your emotions, that point is either invalid or that "someone" is an evil manipulator.

2. The author of the photo is not attempting to deceive people about the number of soldiers killed in Iraq. That is not the point of the photo. The point, as I&#39;ve already stated, is to show that Bush is responsible for these deaths.

Originally posted by Hobbes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hobbes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As for Bush, can you find anything, anything, anything, that would show me supporting the man? In fact, you will find the contrary, so why should you think otherwise, agenda boy?[/b]

Agenda boy&#33; Ya gotta love this guy

<!--QuoteBegin-hobbes
If you cannot support your accusations then STFU, as we are innocent until proven guilty. It is a ploy of the scoundral to make baseless accusations to undermine and opponent, put the suspicion of doubt in the eyes of others.[/quote]

Yeah I know, j2k4 does it all the time to me too

FYI "are you sure " does not equal an accusation, I believe it&#39;s known as a "question".

Next time I shall write [TONGUE IN CHEEK] Are you sure? [/TONGUE IN CHEEK] so we can avoid further confusion.

In case it escaped your attention that question was intended to sarcastically highlight your utterly hysterical response to a minor irrelevant detail. So what if its 709 or 1400? Is the former figure acceptable while the latter would be more worthy of note? They all died in an unnecessary war because Bush lied to the American people.

How come, when you exploded in a fit of rage over the "doubles" issue, this was not obvious to you?