The Gray Zone

[longboneslinger]

Especially considering that none of the terrorists involved in 9/11 were Iraqi.

They were Saudis, Jordanians, and Egyptians, all of whom just happen to be our good bosom buddies. 

BINGO!!

Misstreatment of prisoners can in no way be condoned. I'll admit that it's hard to win when we play by a set of 'rules' and they have none but this is no excuse. That this has happened it all the wars man has faught still is no excuse. War is hell, and soldiers, whether man or woman, can become like beasts in a bestial enviroment. Still no excuse.

I will state that in the case of Saddam and Osama, for example, i'd be willing to entertain the notion looking the other way. THey aren't, in my opinion, human. They forfitted that right with the murder of thousands of innocent human beings. Terrorists, as a whole, are mad-dogs. You don't placate or try to negotiate with rabid animals. You take them out for the good of humanity. This is cold, but so are they. If they are 'handled' quitely, then so much the better. The world has far to many martyrs now.

As a note to my fellow Americans: We need to wake up. The government, Republicans and Democrats both, including the President, have sold out the people. They consider us cattle to be milked for the neccessary monies to keep themselves in power. Before you get to that level of power, you've already sold your soul and when you get there, the buyers collect.

As for Gore winning the popular vote, I think the Republicans just cheated better than the Democrats. Both were cheating. Both were throwing money away, our money, mostly, to elect their canidate.

That's my opinion for what it's worth.
Later taters,
BoNe

PS: there are no such things as 'Federal dollars', those are OUR dollars! Stop government handouts and socialism be damned!

[j2k4]

Some impressively long posts in this thread.

Odd that none of them mentioned Nick Berg, Daniel Pearl, or Americans being burned, dragged and hanged.

Do as you like to Americans, but Allah forbid a raping, bombing, murdering terrorist be seen naked.

Why was their nakedness a problem?

Religion?

If separation of church and state is such a good thing that it should be visited on Iraq regardless of their feelings about democracy, then, hell-no harm, no foul, I say.

Bottom line:

If the terrorists are playing out-of-bounds, we are obligated to fight them the same way; was Nick Berg afforded the protections of the Geneva Convention?

Abu Ghraib (which I do not in any way condone) aside, we owe the terrorists nothing, apart from a fast-track trip to "Virginland".

[Rat Faced]

I still do not regard the militants in Iraq terrorists..... If my country had been invaded i'd be doing the same...irrespective of what i felt for the Government previously in power.


I challenge any American to say they would do otherwise if it was their country.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@12 June 2004 - 14:50
I still do not regard the militants in Iraq terrorists..... If my country had been invaded i'd be doing the same...irrespective of what i felt for the Government previously in power.


I challenge any American to say they would do otherwise if it was their country.

On what basis would you object were you, say, a Norwegian insurgent, imported for the festivities?

I haven't yet seen or heard a conclusive status report on those detainees appearing in the pictures so willingly published.

Again:

What about Nick Berg?

[Rat Faced]

What about the estimated 10,000 Iraqi's killed during the invasion?

What about the estimated 1,000,000 that died due to depleted Uranium from Desert Storm with a blockade on the means to clean it up and of basic medical supplies and bombing water treatment works etc?



Sorry, hes a little outnumbered...

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@12 June 2004 - 15:25
What about the estimated 10,000 Iraqi's killed during the invasion?

What about the estimated 1,000,000 that died due to depleted Uranium from Desert Storm with a blockade on the means to clean it up and of basic medical supplies and bombing water treatment works etc?



Sorry, hes a little outnumbered...

I'd say that depends on who's doing the estimating.

You don't trust mine, nor I yours.

What to do?

What is inarguably relevant is the previous (rightful) supposition that people died in Iraq while the U.N. sanctions were in place; less legitimate is the coincidental supposition that these deaths should be laid at the door of the U.S.

The U.S. was incapable of forcing the U.N. to adopt it's positions with regard to embargoes on Iraq; such embargoes as existed were the result of a consensus.

Neither is the U.S. responsible for the abuse of the "Oil-for-food" program, which no doubt led to more of these wrongful deaths in Iraq.

They weren't due to any lack of custodial effort on the part of the United States, or Ronald Reagan, or either of the Bushes-curiously enough, if there exists the slightest connection to the U.S., the vaguest trace seems to indicate a link between Clinton and Marc Rich.

Definite links have been established which point in a number of interesting directions, but international interest seems only to be in how the U.S. was "involved" (though it was not), and deflecting the focus from any other entity or person.

This circumstance is, by itself, the most mind-blowing example of the willful ignorance exhibited by the U.N.-loving contingent that I can imagine, and here, in the one place I choose to exchange ideas and views with others, it continually gets short-shrift.

No one seems to have the slightest interest in a scandal that points anywhere other than the U.S.

Saddam is held blameless-"If the U.S. hadn't given Saddam that nerve-gas, all those Kurds would still be alive..."

Utter bullshit.

[Rat Faced]

Maybe you should investigate, on your own, in the sites you like to research in...I dont want to colour your judgement on this... what members of 442nd Military Police have been diagnosed with...

They werent in that area for very long....

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@12 June 2004 - 16:06
Maybe you should investigate, on your own, in the sites you like to research in...I dont want to colour your judgement on this... what members of 442nd Military Police have been diagnosed with...

They werent in that area for very long....

What has this, true or not, to do with my post, Rat?

[longboneslinger]

Actually, if my government was as horrible as the one under Saddam, I as a proud American, would be happy for someone to kick his ass out of power. Even if it meant war raging in my beloved country. The people of Iraq needed and deserve to be free of Saddam. I'm sure the actual reasons behind the war are far more convoluted than we suspect, but Saddam and his 2 amoral sociopathic sons are no loss.

I feel that the people of Iraq are happy Saddam is gone. Remember the statue of Saddam they pulled down and hit with shoes? Using a shoe is extremely direspectful over there. They hated him, and with good and ample reason. The people of Iraq are not the problem. The terrorists are. I would imagine that having food, running water, electricity and fully staffed hospitals is is a great experience to these people. Not to mention schools and better sanitation.

The reason so many died in the last 12 years or so can be blamed on Saddam. Not the US. The UN can share some of the blame for not stepping in. But then again, Syria is, or at least was, on the board of human rights. What a joke. Hell, were US soldiers dropping peeps into chipper shredders? And joking that if you dropped them in feet first, they screamed longer? I don't recall the US gassing over 250,000 Kurds to death either! I do recall that some terrorists 'fundamentalists' killing a convoy of US citizens, setting them on fire, tossing them off bridges and decapitating them.

Put men in bestial situations and they will become beasts. Raise them to be violent and to think that wanton murder will be rewarded by God and so a man or woman becomes a terrorist. Just point them at the 'enemy' and let'm go. Or did we learn nothing from the Spanish Inquisition? The Salem Witch Hunts? The Crusades? A fanatic who believes he is on a mission from God can be either a force of tremendous good or tremendous evil. Usually evil, because he/she is blinded to all but their own perceived 'truth'.

Face it J2K4, the US will get the blame for the worlds troubles even if they have to invent 'facts', twist the truth and outright lie.

What about the estimated 10,000 Iraqi's killed during the invasion?

What about the estimated 1,000,000 that died due to depleted Uranium from Desert Storm with a blockade on the means to clean it up and of basic medical supplies and bombing water treatment works etc?

Shit happens in war. It's called 'collateral damage' and is unavoidable. We tried, but it happens. Thats why we should stop wars. People get killed. What governments should realize is that "When you send a soldier to war, he becomes a policy maker. Because when his ass is on the line, he'll do whatever it takes to survive. He'll make his own policy with brute force."

Later taters,
BoNe

[j2k4]

Originally posted by longboneslinger@12 June 2004 - 17:08
Actually, if my government was as horrible as the one under Saddam, I as a proud American, would be happy for someone to kick his ass out of power. Even if it meant war raging in my beloved country. The people of Iraq needed and deserve to be free of Saddam. I'm sure the actual reasons behind the war are far more convoluted than we suspect, but Saddam and his 2 amoral sociopathic sons are no loss.

I feel that the people of Iraq are happy Saddam is gone. Remember the statue of Saddam they pulled down and hit with shoes? Using a shoe is extremely direspectful over there. They hated him, and with good and ample reason. The people of Iraq are not the problem. The terrorists are. I would imagine that having food, running water, electricity and fully staffed hospitals is is a great experience to these people. Not to mention schools and better sanitation.

The reason so many died in the last 12 years or so can be blamed on Saddam. Not the US. The UN can share some of the blame for not stepping in. But then again, Syria is, or at least was, on the board of human rights. What a joke. Hell, were US soldiers dropping peeps into chipper shredders? And joking that if you dropped them in feet first, they screamed longer? I don't recall the US gassing over 250,000 Kurds to death either! I do recall that some terrorists 'fundamentalists' killing a convoy of US citizens, setting them on fire, tossing them off bridges and decapitating them.

Put men in bestial situations and they will become beasts. Raise them to be violent and to think that wanton murder will be rewarded by God and so a man or woman becomes a terrorist. Just point them at the 'enemy' and let'm go. Or did we learn nothing from the Spanish Inquisition? The Salem Witch Hunts? The Crusades? A fanatic who believes he is on a mission from God can be either a force of tremendous good or tremendous evil. Usually evil, because he/she is blinded to all but their own perceived 'truth'.

Face it J2K4, the US will get the blame for the worlds troubles even if they have to invent 'facts', twist the truth and outright lie.

What about the estimated 10,000 Iraqi's killed during the invasion?

What about the estimated 1,000,000 that died due to depleted Uranium from Desert Storm with a blockade on the means to clean it up and of basic medical supplies and bombing water treatment works etc?

Shit happens in war. It's called 'collateral damage' and is unavoidable. We tried, but it happens. Thats why we should stop wars. People get killed. What governments should realize is that "When you send a soldier to war, he becomes a policy maker. Because when his ass is on the line, he'll do whatever it takes to survive. He'll make his own policy with brute force."

Later taters,
BoNe

Can I be president of your fan club?