Your Ad Here Your Ad Here
Page 1 of 7 1234 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 70

Thread: Free Will

  1. #1
    Is free will real or just an illusion?

    For those of you who believe in an omniscient and omnipotent God, consider this:

    How can we have free will if God, as an omniscient entity, already knows what your choices will be?

    For example:

    God asks you to choose between door #1 and door #2.
    You choose door #2.
    Since God is omniscient, he already knew you were going to choose door #2 from the day you were born.
    This makes it impossible to "surprise" God, since your choice was always predicted/controlled by him. This rules out the possibility of free will.

    If God is in fact omniscient, then free will can't possibly exist and everything is pre-determined.
    If God is omniscient and everything is pre-determined, then we cannot be held responsible for our actions or choices. If we assume this, then there is no such thing as doing good or evil since it's all being predicted/controlled by the will of God. This also means that God can never be "disappointed" by our choices and his punishments (as described in the Bible, for example) are complete non-sense (unless he likes to toy around with us).

    For free will to exist, God can't be omniscient, and consequently, can't be omnipotent either.
    Or simply, God can't exist.

  2. The Drawing Room   -   #2
    dwightfry's Avatar Poster
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Fargo, ND
    Posts
    1,035
    knowing everything and controlling everything are different. Yeah, sure, God knew that you were going to pick door #2, but that doesn't mean he/she made you pick door #2. Neither omnisciency or omnipotency claim that he/she actually controls everything even though he can. In fact, being omnipotent gives him/her the power to do what ever he/she wants, including giving freewill. Even if that somehow contradicted itself, he/she still could do it.
    Life should come with backround music
    -Dwight Fry-
    Coconut, the desert's onion
    -Dwight Fry-
    Why stand when you can lean, why lean when you can sit, why sit when you can lounge, why lounge when you can lie
    -Dwight Fry-
    www.BrownSugarStudios.com

  3. The Drawing Room   -   #3
    Yeah, sure, God knew that you were going to pick door #2
    If he already knew what I was going to choose then why ask me to do it anyway?

    In an omniscient model of a god, you can't escape his omnisciency since he already knows the outcome of all your choices from the day you were born. I'm not saying he forces you to choose, I'm saying that he knows the outcome of your choices making them completely useless. If there is no way to change the outcome predicted by god then there is no free will.

    Another example:

    Let's pretend you're omniscient.
    You have a question that you already know the answer.
    You already know what I'm going to answer.
    Why ask me the question if you already know what I'm going to answer?
    Even though you didn't force me to answer, I had no way to escape your predictions since you're omniscient.

    Conclusion: It's completely pointless to ask the question since you already know the outcome, the same way that it's completely pointless for humans to make choices if god already knows the outcome.

    The only way to change the outcome is if:

    1- God isn't omniscient (and therefore isn't omnipotent either, because someone/something that doesn't know everything can't do everything)
    2- There is no God

    If god is omniscient then you can't change the outcome predicted by him. He can't be surprised by your choices since he knew what they were going to be all along.

    Neither omnisciency or omnipotency claim that he/she actually controls everything even though he can. In fact, being omnipotent gives him/her the power to do what ever he/she wants, including giving freewill. Even if that somehow contradicted itself, he/she still could do it.
    If god doesn't control everything, simply because he doesn't want to, then what you're actually saying is that if he exists, he simply doesn't care that much for human kind, leaving them on their own.

    An omniscient and omnipotent god that gives free will to humans, is the same as walking out on them leaving everything to randomness, or in other words, leaving everything to their own random choices.

  4. The Drawing Room   -   #4
    Poster
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    9,946
    Which is this omniscient boy - World News or Events.

    This should be in the Talk Club thing. Can I commend a move to a mod.

    Did you see that coming, or do we have free will after all.

  5. The Drawing Room   -   #5
    thewizeard's Avatar re-member BT Rep: +1
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    7,607
    Perhaps he is still looking for the one to prove Him wrong....?

    Maybe Oscar was right when he said,
    Code:
    I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability.

  6. The Drawing Room   -   #6
    Poster
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    9,946
    Any attempt to understand or define the intent of an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent being, based on our limited understanding of the universe is arrogant in the extreme and ultimately doomed to failure. We cannot understand things for which we have no frame of reference, as a starting point.

    It is like trying to explain the workings of the internal combustion engine to a tree frog. There are simply too many concepts and ideas that fall outwith our current knowledge and understanding.

    FFS I struggle with the concept of a 13 dimensional multiverse. How likely is it that I will be able to understand the workings or intentions of the being who created it.

    Introduce the frog to the mechanic and see how well their conversation goes. I suspect it will be a one way street.



    I still say this should be moved, it is not World News or Events related. If this were started in About this Board it would have been moved by now. The Talk Club is the correct place for this.

  7. The Drawing Room   -   #7
    chalice's Avatar ____________________
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    13,074
    I don't often do this but it's grammar time.

    There is no such word as "omniciency" or "omnipotency" for that matter.

    The words are omniscience and omnipotence.

    Sorry, that was just bugging me.

  8. The Drawing Room   -   #8
    Poster
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    9,946
    Originally posted by chalice@17 May 2004 - 21:38
    I don't often do this but it's grammar time.

    There is no such word as "omniciency" or "omnipotency" for that matter.

    The words are omniscience and omnipotence.

    Sorry, that was just bugging me.
    Thank you, really I mean that. Thank you very much indeed.

  9. The Drawing Room   -   #9
    chalice's Avatar ____________________
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Posts
    13,074
    Originally posted by J&#39;Pol+17 May 2004 - 20:41--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (J&#39;Pol @ 17 May 2004 - 20:41)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-chalice@17 May 2004 - 21:38
    I don&#39;t often do this but it&#39;s grammar time.

    There is no such word as "omniciency" or "omnipotency" for that matter.

    The words are omniscience and omnipotence.

    Sorry, that was just bugging me.
    Thank you, really I mean that. Thank you very much indeed. [/b][/quote]
    I tried to resist, JP, but the outcome was written in stone.

  10. The Drawing Room   -   #10
    Poster
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Posts
    9,946
    Originally posted by chalice+17 May 2004 - 21:57--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (chalice @ 17 May 2004 - 21:57)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
    Originally posted by J&#39;Pol@17 May 2004 - 20:41
    <!--QuoteBegin-chalice
    @17 May 2004 - 21:38
    I don&#39;t often do this but it&#39;s grammar time.

    There is no such word as "omniciency" or "omnipotency" for that matter.

    The words are omniscience and omnipotence.

    Sorry, that was just bugging me.

    Thank you, really I mean that. Thank you very much indeed.
    I tried to resist, JP, but the outcome was written in stone. [/b][/quote]
    Pre-determined you might say.

Page 1 of 7 1234 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •