Dems Refuse To Release Tape Of Hatefest

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by spinningfreemanny+17 July 2004 - 06:04--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (spinningfreemanny @ 17 July 2004 - 06:04)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-clocker@17 July 2004 - 03:08
Wanna start swapping Googled surveys?
Here, I&#39;ll start.

Come on, Don&#39;t find a liberal outlet site as your first piece of evidence.... just look at some respectable gallup polls.

I think that you will have to search long and hard for a poll to produce your opinion.

Heres a good Gallup poll [/b][/quote]
You misunderstand...

No one is doubting that poll either, it doesnt contradict what clocker is saying...it confirms it...

Forty-five percent of Americans believe the news media in this country are too liberal, while only 14% say the news media are too conservative. These perceptions of liberal bias have not changed over the last three years. More generally, a little more than half of Americans have a great deal or fair amount of trust in the news media when it comes to reporting the news fully, accurately, and fairly. Trust in the news media has not changed significantly over the last six years.

clocker isnt saying there is no belief in Liberal Bias, he is saying that the studies consistantly show there is no justification for that belief.

The study was from a University, not from the outlet...however as fair.org attacks censorship and bias whoever it comes from, then i&#39;d like to know why you consider it a "liberal" organisation.

There are just as many Conservatives that actually want to know what is going on, without someone else deciding what should and shouldnt be reported. The "Liberals" try and surpress news too, not just the "Conservatives"..they both get slammed for it.

[clocker]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@17 July 2004 - 04:34



clocker isnt saying there is no belief in Liberal Bias, he is saying that the studies consistantly show there is no justification for that belief.

Precisely, RF.

"The Liberal Media" is simply another urban myth that has gained creedence by virtue of repetition, much like cell phones causing gas stations to explode and the whole Gay Marriage Constitutional Amendment fiasco.

[j2k4]

Some "hot air" for you, Clocker, courtesy of the lib media:


The media want Kerry to win. They’re going to portray Kerry and Edwards as being young and dynamic and optimistic, and
this glow is going to be worth maybe 15 points."
— Newsweek Editor Evan Thomas, July 10.

Peter Jennings: “One of the Bush administration’s most controversial assertions in its argument for war in Iraq was that Saddam Hussein had links to al-Qaeda. Today the 9/11 Commission said, unequivocally, not so....”
Terry Moran: “After the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq undermined President Bush’s main argument for going to war, this new finding by the 9/11 Commission challenges his case on another front.”
— ABC’s World News Tonight, June 16.

Reality Check:
Chairman Thomas Kean: “Were there contacts between al-Qaeda and Iraq? Yes. Some of them are shadowy, but there’s no question they were there....”
Vice Chairman Lee Hamilton: “I have trouble understanding the flap over this. The Vice President is saying, I think, that there were connections between al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein’s government. We don’t disagree with that....It seems to me that the sharp differences that the press has drawn, the media has drawn, are not that apparent to me.”
— The two top members of the 9/11 Commission at a June 17 press conference.

“I read the book [My Life by Bill Clinton] completely. And I think it compares very favorably with Ulysses S. Grant’s gold standard of presidential autobiographies.”
— Dan Rather on CNN’s Larry King Live, June 18.

vs.

“While Dan Rather, who interviewed Mr. Clinton for 60 Minutes, has already compared the book to the memoirs of Ulysses S. Grant, arguably the most richly satisfying autobiography by an American President, My Life has little of that classic’s unsparing candor or historical perspective. Instead, it devolves into a hodgepodge of jottings: part policy primer, part 12-step confessional, part stump speech and part presidential archive, all, it seems, hurriedly written and even more hurriedly edited.”
— New York Times book reviewer Michiko Kakutani in a June 20 front-page critique of My Life.

“I used to say I thought if you were down on your luck and you got through the Secret Service, got in the Oval Office and said, ‘Mr. President, I’m down on my luck,’ he would literally give you the shirt off his back. And then he’d sit down in his undershirt and he’d sign legislation throwing your kids off school lunch program, maybe your parents off Social Security, and of course the Welfare Queen off of welfare.”
– ABC’s Sam Donaldson, who covered the White House during the 1980s, on Good Morning America, June 11.

“Can you tell, Thelma,...if the crowds really look like America? Are they ethnically diverse – African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans – or is it largely white?”
– CNN’s Wolf Blitzer asking reporter Thelma Gutierrez about the crowds at Reagan’s presidential library during live coverage shortly after 12pm EDT on June 8.

“We haven’t seen many African-American faces up at the presidential library, or this morning.”
– ABC’s Peter Jennings during live coverage as Reagan’s casket left Point Mugu Naval Air Station en route to Washington D.C., about 12:13pm EDT on June 9.

“Pretty simplistic. Pretty old-fashioned. And I don’t think they have much application to what’s currently wrong or troubling a lot of people....Nor do I think he really understands the enormous difficulty a lot of people have in just getting through life, because he’s lived in this fantasy land for so long.”
– NBC anchorman Tom Brokaw speculating on Reagan’s values in Mother Jones, April 1983.

“A new ABC News/Washington Post poll finds that nearly two-thirds of Americans think the U.S. is bogged down in Iraq. Nearly six in ten say the administration lacks a clear plan. And for the first time, fewer than half of the Americans we talked to, 47 percent, approve of Mr. Bush’s overall job as President; 50 percent disapprove.”
– The only numbers from an ABC News/Washington Post poll cited by Peter Jennings on World News Tonight, May 24.

vs.
“Kerry draws just modest benefit from Bush’s difficulties. He’s got a scant five-point lead over Bush in trust to handle the economy, and it’s Bush +6 in trust to handle Iraq and Bush +13 in trust to handle terrorism. But Bush did somewhat better against the Democratic candidate on all these a month ago. Bush continues to be better rated than Kerry in honesty, strong leadership and consistency; he’s also much better rated in trust to handle a crisis and making the country more secure.”
– ABC News polling analyst Gary Langer, in an analysis of the same survey posted May 24 on ABCNews.com.

“Today the government said that America’s prison population grew 2.9 percent last year to nearly 2.1 million. That’s a record number of people in jail and prison. One out of every 75 American men was incarcerated. The number went up even though the crime rate continued to fall.”
– ABC’s Peter Jennings on World News Tonight, May 27.

Fred Francis: “In the Arab street and much of the world, outrage has produced a consensus: Rumsfeld must go. In Egypt, Marabat Molson [ph.], considered a moderate journalist, says Arabs reject the Rumsfeld apology that still seemed more arrogant than contrite.”
Marabat Molson: “He is reminding me of a sort of neo-Nazi character who’s coming back to life and anything which is not American is wrong.”
Francis: “In Cairo, anti-U.S. sentiment is so strong many here see no difference here between the actions of Saddam Hussein and George Bush....One Arab businessman [said], ‘That is not Jeffersonian democracy. It’s more like a lesson from Hitler’s book, Mein Kampf.’”
— Story on the May 10 NBC Nightly News.

“The front page of a Baghdad paper shows the defiled prisoners and the caption: ‘This is the freedom and democracy that Bush promised us.’ Psychologically, if not in fact, these pictures shred the last good reason to feel righteous about having gone to war.”
— Time’s Nancy Gibbs in the May 17 edition.

“This story resonates in so many ways. Just to emphasize how worked up the Democrats are on Capitol Hill, Congressman Charles Rangel of New York has filed articles of impeachment against the Secretary of Defense for his conduct of the war in Iraq and his handling of the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib.”
— Peter Jennings on ABC’s World News Tonight, May 6.

“What kind of absurd political twilight zone is it where George Bush and Dick Cheney can make John Kerry look like an unpatriotic chicken by focusing attention on his combat duty in Vietnam?...What is the word that has more gall than gall? Nerve? Cheek, chutzpah, conceit, arrogance, condescension?...Where do these people come off impugning John Kerry’s Vietnam era guts and patriotism? John McCain, Colin Powell, Tom Ridge or Chuck Hagel might have some moral standing, but not these chickenhawks.”
— Former CBS Evening News producer Dick Meyer in a CBSNews.com column posted April 30.

“Is it, do you think, I mean this is a criticism that we get a lot, particularly from the Left, that we in the media generally have not been aggressive enough in reporting on bad news and that we have been too willing to accept the administration’s message on good news?”
— CNN anchor Aaron Brown to former CBS and NBC correspondent Marvin Kalb, now a senior fellow with Harvard’s Shorenstein Center on the Press, Politics, and Public Policy, on the May 11 NewsNight

“The other day, while taking a break by the Al-Hamra Hotel pool...I was accosted by an American magazine journalist of serious accomplishment and impeccable liberal credentials....She came to the point. Not only had she ‘known’ the Iraq war would fail but she considered it essential that it did so because this would ensure that the ‘evil’ George W. Bush would no longer be running her country. Her editors back on the East Coast were giggling, she said, over what a disaster Iraq had turned out to be. ‘Lots of us talk about how awful it would be if this worked out.’”
— British journalist Toby Harnden, a reporter for the London Daily Telegraph, in an article published in the May 15 edition of The Spectator, a British-based weekly, recounting a conversation at a Baghdad hotel.

“We’ll take ‘A Closer Look’ tonight at John Kerry’s dilemma: After brave and honorable service in Vietnam, a post-war record that dogs him.”
– ABC’s Peter Jennings on World News Tonight, April 26.

“We’ll take ‘A Closer Look’ tonight at John Kerry’s distinguished war record. His opponents are trying hard to use it against him.”
– ABC’s Charles Gibson, World News Tonight, April 21.

“It’s pretty interesting to hear the Bush camp go into this area of Senator Kerry’s military record. It seems like that’s the last place they’d want to go, not wanting to draw any more attention to President Bush’s military record.”
– Daryn Kagan anchoring CNN Live Today, April 26.

“The best defense is a good offense, they say, and the Bush campaign seems to be buying. On a week when the President and Vice President will go before the 9/11 commission, on a week when the Supreme Court will hear a case to open the records of the Vice President’s energy task force and, on a week that will end on May 1, the anniversary of the President’s speech declaring major combat over in Iraq, the Vice President took to the stump today to say John Kerry’s judgment on national security is questionable....It is a somewhat strange set of circumstances that 33-year-old questions are being asked of a candidate who volunteered to go to Vietnam and served with distinction, however briefly.”
– Aaron Brown on CNN’s NewsNight, April 26.
“There has to be a danger in the White House response to this....The 1970, ‘73, ‘74 era is kind of a black hole for them, too. Kerry said in response tonight, ‘All of this is coming from a President who can’t even prove that he showed up for duty with the National Guard.’ That’s perhaps not a serve that goes right past your opponent, but it’s a pretty good return.”
– Keith Olbermann on MSNBC’s Countdown, April 26.

“Do you think this is a stupid argument that’s been going on from the other side, attacking you for throwing away what you said, or implied, or allowed the people to imply were medals when in fact they were ribbons?”
“What do you think of guys like [Vice President] Cheney who said, ‘I’m gonna have a kid at the right time. I’m going to grad school at the right time. I’m gonna stack up those deferments until I’m 83 years old, before they get anywhere near me,’ and they’re also hawkish?”
“Do you think the people around the President have hoisted themselves on their own petard by bringing up this issue of your service?”
“Do you think this administration and its political handlers like Karl Rove are capable of recognizing they can’t beat you on the jobs issue, they can’t beat you on foreign policy, so they’re gonna drop this nonsensical stuff [on you]?”
– Some of Chris Matthews’ questions to Senator John Kerry on MSNBC’s Hardball, April 27.


I could go on, if you like...

[Rat Faced]

Fact: A lot of journalists could well be "Liberal"

Fact: Even the Liberal Journalists mostly work for "Conservatives", and they therefore must "Toe the Line" to a point or lose their job.

Fact: Even the "Liberal" viewpoints of the USA are considered quite Right Wing, by most of the West... (By "Liberal" im refering to the Democrats)

Fact: No matter how many opinions you post, it does not hold the weight of a study based on the whole Media. Especially if you insist on using subjective matter such as Book Reviews.



I notice that you have given a Conservative opinion with each Liberal one..often from the same source...This in itself suggests the source itself is balanced, and that there is as much "Conservative" biased as "Liberal"

[clocker]

I could go on, if you like...

Please do...perhaps eventually you&#39;ll find an example that proves your point.

[SuperJude™]

Originally posted by clocker@17 July 2004 - 13:44
"The Liberal Media" is simply another urban myth that has gained creedence by virtue of repetition, much like cell phones causing gas stations to explode and the whole Gay Marriage Constitutional Amendment fiasco.

Hmmm I guess this post will contain this guys quote but is directed to people with an open mind willing to listen.

So clocker says prove it or it is an urban myth (do you people see only what you wish to see?) but statements like that put the onus on people like me to do the groundwork when in fact I am sure most people would agree that the media is most assuredly more liberal than not.

Well I sell magazines where I work and we got this weeks in today, so while putting them away I did a quick flip through and to the best of my ability this is the split between right and left:

Conservative:
NY Post
Washinton Times
The Economist
US News & World Report (borderline).

Now for the liberal&#33;
NY Times
NY Daily News
Kingston Freeman
Woodstock Times
Adbusters
The Citizen
Time
Newsweek
The Nation
New Criterion
Foreign Affairs
New York Mag
Village Voice
Saturday Evening Post
Washignton Post
Tikkun
People

That is just a quick glimpse, let alone the entertainment mags:
Rolling Stone
Sync
Q
Spin
Premiere.

Argue any way you want, butI really did look through all these and it is what it is. Besides to get a Communications Degree most people do go to liberal arts colleges correct? I know that doesn&#39;t mean "liberal" per se but I bet more leftists come from liberal arts colleges than not.

Or is that just an urban myth too?

-SJ™

EDIT: Oh btw, hate to burst your bubbles guys but get this one: The cheif owner of Slimfast, S. Daniel Abraham, is an ardent Democrat btw. Gave the max 25 thousand to Kerry&#39;s campaign and has admitted giving millions over the years in soft money to Democratic and defeat Bush causes. Funny huh? And that is most assuredly NOT an urban myth folks.

[Rat Faced]

EDIT: Oh btw, hate to burst your bubbles guys but get this one: The cheif owner of Slimfast, S. Daniel Abraham, is an ardent Democrat btw. Gave the max 25 thousand to Kerry&#39;s campaign and has admitted giving millions over the years in soft money to Democratic and defeat Bush causes. Funny huh? And that is most assuredly NOT an urban myth folks.

Which goes to support the view that he probably wouldnt have fired her without outside interferance.... ?


Liberal & Conservative are subjective as to where your personal persective is SJ.

Im sure that someone with a different outlook would probably classify them differently.... which is why I put more weight into a Study of the Media, than peoples opinions.


(alright, the people doing the study may have views too...but they will have rules by which to classify too that they will have to follow)


Edit:


SJ,

I notice the "Conservative" list is preceded by a colon, whereas the "Liberal" list is preceded by an exclamation mark... I assume this was subconcious?

It would certainly leave a subconsious impression to the reader....

[clocker]

So clocker says prove it or it is an urban myth (do you people see only what you wish to see?) but statements like that put the onus on people like me to do the groundwork when in fact I am sure most people would agree that the media is most assuredly more liberal than not.

The onus is most assuredly upon you...you are the one making the disputed statement after all.

Who are "you people"?

What "most people" might agree on is hardly the issue.
As RF has already pointed out, perception and reality can be very different things.

BTW...you would classify People as liberal?

Trash, maybe.....

[SuperJude™]

It is posts like that which keep me from really delving too much into political discussion. Some people will just argue anything I guess. Seeing as how posting anything in response to you clocker is utterly pointless I guess I should just shut up and agree with you.

Right?

Nothing worse than just blindly making points. BTW clocker were you blender before?

-SJ™

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@17 July 2004 - 11:24

EDIT: Oh btw, hate to burst your bubbles guys but get this one: The cheif owner of Slimfast, S. Daniel Abraham, is an ardent Democrat btw. Gave the max 25 thousand to Kerry&#39;s campaign and has admitted giving millions over the years in soft money to Democratic and defeat Bush causes. Funny huh? And that is most assuredly NOT an urban myth folks.

Which goes to support the view that he probably wouldnt have fired her without outside interferance.... ?


Im sure that someone with a different outlook would probably classify them differently.... which is why I put more weight into a Study of the Media, than peoples opinions.


(alright, the people doing the study may have views too...but they will have rules by which to classify too that they will have to follow)

Rat-

You seem to want to conclude (as many liberals are wont to do) that Conservatives/Republicans are a pesky and (numerically) extremely small segment of the actual population.

Such is undoubtedly true on this board, but it is not the case in the U.S., or Republicans would not be holding the majorities (however tenuously).

To your statement that ...he probably wouldnt have fired her without outside interferance...., I can only say, what harm? If we conservatives are so numerically insignificant, and Mr. Abraham is (as are ALL liberals) a man for whom principle counts most, why did he fire her?

Could it be that reality does indeed intrude, and there is no "pie-in-the-sky"?

Your last supposition does itself in:

If you concede that study results are subject to the whims of those doing the study, I will, likewise; the fallacy of "duelling studies" has been borne out on the board many times, and been shown to be true at every turn, so, we are left, therefore, with opinion pieces (which I have always preferred), which allow room for one&#39;s own conclusions (which I also prefer).

Just about the only thing I&#39;ve ever googled for use in this forum has been either an opinion or a direct quote.

On the odd occasion I&#39;ve googled studies, it has been merely to provide a counter to someone else&#39;s study.

For the most part, studies are for assholes, and there are studies to prove it.