O'reilly Vs. Moore

[ilw]

It seems much of the world (still) cannot stand the US for our power,

The only reason "Bush" scrares you and the rest of the world is maybe that you have all known that the U.S. is powerful, and maybe Viet Nam confused many of you that was not so, and now it makes you nervous to see that the U.S. is still mighty. Is it the U.S. and our might that scares you or Bush?

I think you're writing off a lot with simple 'penis envy' type statements, but while the one at the top is rarely liked, I find it a bit insulting and frankly annoying that you brush off our (i'm european) views like this. The fact is that bush is regarded as being fairly stupid and frankly uncaring by europeans (in general) and his policies regarding the environment, nuclear missile proliferation and nuclear missile defence are practically heresy. On a personal note I don't think bush is competent to be the number 1 man in the world, in fact i find it hard to think of a more bumbling figure in major world politics since Boris Yeltsin (and even then he wasn't so terribly bad at the start, when he was sober).

[Rat Faced]

The Coalition, over the last 10 years have killed more innocent Iraqi's than Hussian ever managed.

I can even live with the justification of the last Decade prior to the invasion.. not like it, but live with it.


SJ,

I might actually turn up to a meal with Bin Laden to listen to why he acts like he does... I wouldnt with Bush.

There are a lot of complaints about comparables of US with Nazi Germany at the moment. Ever wonder where why the two are being compared?

Hitler started off with a mission statement almost identicle to that of PNAC, the members of which surround GW, and the policies of which appear to be that of the USA. Hell the PNAC has more... because the people that endorsed Hitler werent as influential when they did, as those that endorse PNAC now.

Its not as if the Bush family can claim they dont have a history with Nazism either..look up what GW's Grandfather was doing in the 30's & 40's

Hitler started off with policies similar to the Patriot Act at home, and giving the nation an "Enemy" to hate..in his case the Jews, in the USA's the Muslims.

Hell the similarities between the start of the 3rd Reich and the USA today are astounding.

I've seen loads of arguments about pre-empting Hussain and comparing him to Hitler, well guess what... Thats exactly what the rest of the world see in GW and his cronies, and its what a lot of us want to stop.


The USA has, by and large, been a good example to the rest of the world for the majority of its history.

Yes, they've done some shitty things...so has everyone else.

On the Balance though, its always been one of the "Good Guys".

This has changed in the last 4 years... no one looks to the US for the moral Highground at the moment

As one of your senetors put it:

Recently we met with the ambassadors of Germany and France and Britain in our policy committee, and they said the young people are disillusioned. They always look to the United States for the moral position and taking and defending that particular position. They do not look there anymore.

If this is what your Allies feel, then how do those that have always sat on the fence?

Under GW Bush, the USA has garnered more enemies and illwill than at any point in its history... another similarity with Germany in the 30's.

Its "Liberated" 2 sovereign nations, that judging by the crap in those countries now, didnt want to be Liberated..... (Anyone remembering the part Germany played in the Spanish Civil War here?)

What next SJ?


Why not read up on whats next at the PNAC site

Maybe its Iran?


Like I said, generally i dont give a stuff about another countries politics. Its for their citizens to decide.

If Pat Buccanon had got nominated and was President, I'd disagree with his politics but respect his views...at least that is straightforward, good old capitalistic greed. He's much further to the Right than Bush and Co were on most issues i believe.


However Bush, Chaney, Wolfowitz and Co are the most dangerous people in the world at this moment in time.

I hope to hell someone takes them out at the earliest opportunity.



Please dont look at this as an "Anti-American" post.

Its not.

I Like Americans in general, I just dont want to see you go down that road

[clocker]

Originally posted by SuperJude™@1 August 2004 - 01:49


I am sure it would not fit your world view, but hey man just think maybe I have some cultural perspective here. And why do so many of you not from here, never been here, never had your lives changed in any manner cept for the better by the US wanna shit on it?

Cause you are sheep. I have a reason to think about 9-11 there guy, while I am sure in your life you have done a lot of sitting on your ass opinionating.

I guess somebody must do so thought right? While others may actually take action and that scares you who are afraid of action.

-SJ™

What are you ranting on about?

What is so unique about your "cultural perspective"?
For that matter, what the hell is your "cultural perspective"?

Who are these mythical people who "never had your lives changed in any manner cept for the better by the US "?

While others may actually take action and that scares you who are afraid of action.

So wrongheaded, destructive and ultimately futile action is better than none at all?

You're right.
That does scare me.

[Biggles]

Originally posted by SuperJude™+1 August 2004 - 05:36--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SuperJude™ &#064; 1 August 2004 - 05:36)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Rat Faced@1 August 2004 - 00:06
I hate to admit that the world would be better off without the guy in the whitehouse.

Luckilly you are not in the U.S. with sentiments like that. [/b][/quote]
Surely that is the raison d&#39;etre of the Democrats. Is it illegal to want a change of Government in the US?

For my part, I think the anti-US thing is overblown. Whilst I remain unimpressed by Bush, and in particular think his economic policies are flawed, at worst he will only be around for 4 more years. The world will move on.

There are 6 billion people on this planet - the overwhelming majority give barely a second thought to Bush or the US as they go about their daily business. Their cultural perspective rightly focusing on their daily lives.

The atrocity that was 9/11 is obviously etched on minds in the US - that is a cultural perspective. Equally the 1 million hacked to death with machetes in Rwanda will haunt that nation for a long time to come - yet it rarely gets much of a thought anywhere else. As we discuss this thousands are dying in Dafur - and no doubt we all agree that something should be done - but it is outwith our cultural perspective so it does touch home like a domestic crisis even if it is many times larger.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Rat Faced@1 August 2004 - 05:29
The Coalition, over the last 10 years have killed more innocent Iraqi&#39;s than Hussian ever managed.

I might actually turn up to a meal with Bin Laden to listen to why he acts like he does...

Its not as if the Bush family can claim they dont have a history with Nazism either..

Hitler started off with policies similar to the Patriot Act at home, and giving the nation an "Enemy" to hate..in his case the Jews, in the USA&#39;s the Muslims.

Hell the similarities between the start of the 3rd Reich and the USA today are astounding.

... no one looks to the US for the moral Highground

However Bush, Chaney, Wolfowitz and Co are the most dangerous people in the world at this moment in time.

I hope to hell someone takes them out at the earliest opportunity.




Please dont look at this as an "Anti-American" post.

Wash off the sauce and that is the meat of your post, Rat.

I used the Michael Moore editting technique; I&#39;m sure you can appreciate it.

[SuperJude™]

Originally posted by clocker@1 August 2004 - 11:50

What is so unique about your "cultural perspective"?
For that matter, what the hell is your "cultural perspective"?

I dunno guy maybe digging body parts at the Trade Center after 9-11 perhaps?

Could THAT be what I am reffering to? Is THAT okay to say interms of my cultural persective?

-SJ™

[Snee]

Isn&#39;t 9-11 in some ways something that makes America look bad?

I mean, would it have happened at all if the US hadn&#39;t funded certain groups in their struggle against communism once upon a time, movements that have then turned against the US.

I mean, I&#39;m not saying anyone deserved it, but it happened in part because of their own policies, as many people have pointed out.

Therefore 9-11 is kind of a weak argument as to why to US ought to be allowed to do something or other, it certainly doesn&#39;t make the US government&#39;s cause seem more righteous. If anything it points to that they ought to consider the long-term consequences a great deal more before they jump into anything.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by SnnY@1 August 2004 - 11:36
Isn&#39;t 9-11 in some ways something that makes America look bad?

I mean, would it have happened at all if the US hadn&#39;t funded certain groups in their struggle against communism once upon a time, movements that have then turned against the US.

I mean, I&#39;m not saying anyone deserved it, but it happened in part because of their own policies, as many people have pointed out.

Therefore 9-11 is kind of a weak argument as to why to US ought to be allowed to do something or other, it certainly doesn&#39;t make the US government&#39;s cause seem more righteous. If anything it points to that they ought to consider the long-term consequences a great deal more before they jump into anything.

Okay.

What you are saying is that because the U.S. helped Osama bin Laden in his efforts to fight the Russians in Afghanistan, one would quite naturally and logically conclude Osama would eventually turn against the U.S.?

9/11 aside (I must say you have a unique view of the event), we still could not have "jumped" much more slowly than we did in Iraq; well over a year and beaucoup U.N. resolutions later?

What we now know about France, Germany, China and Russia, and their special relationships with Saddam, I sincerely doubt anything would ever have been done, so what is it exactly that you propose?

[hobbes]

Rat, your rambling a bit.

The coalition and it&#39;s sanctions were in power long before Bush stepped in office.

The invasion, although not ultimately justified, will actually save lives in the long run, as the sanctions against Iraq are no more.

Someone on the other side might spin it his way by stating that George Bush was a humanitarian that was sickened by the indirect killing of Iraqi&#39;s through sanctions, and although some would die during an invasion, once the root cause was weeded out, lives would be saved long-term.

See how sickening spin can be.



You imply that George&#39;s grandparents were involved in Nazi-ism in the 1930&#39;s and 40&#39;s, but our supportive relationship with Jews in Israel is WHY Bin Laden attacked us.

Where are you going with this scatter gun approach, it does not logically follow. Because Grand-dad was a racist, George must be as well? He chose Muslims. Nice smear technique.


Hitler chose the Jews, as you say, to point a finger at someone, and label them as the problem. Muslims bought their own bad PR in 9/11. We didn&#39;t really have any problems that required a scapegoat, either.

As for Muslims, they are a bit different from the typical American and this lack of familiarity (and the fact that most Americans, prior to 9/11, only knew Muslims from the Palestinean suicide bombers) and 9/11 does lead people to fear this unknown. But gee, muslims are walking the streets of the US, they are working at the desk next to mine, not in a concentration camp being starved, frozen and operated on like guinea pigs.

Sure, bring up Guantanamo Bay, that will underline how specious your comparisons are. Those people were collected during a war they caused, not pulled from their homes in the US. Treatment and prosecution has not been ideal or even acceptable, but the situation is also equally not comparable to a Nazi concentration camp.

Why is Bush being compared to Hitler, because that is who every high school student compares anyone they don&#39;t like too. It is quite the cliche. The beauty is that you don&#39;t have to prove it, you just have to taint George with the association.

As for the US being a good example of conduct before George&#39;s term, this is so astoundingly contradictory to what has been posted on this forum, I am drowning in the inconsistenseas. How can you possibly believe that George Bush alone is responsible for some unique change in the way the US works. We have been plugging in dictators in South America for a 100 years. Working behind the scenes to install "US friendly" governemnts is nothing unique to PNAC.

If I posted your comment that, excluding the last 4 years, the US has been a model of conduct for the world to learn from at Rikk and Cowsy&#39;s, well, I think it would soon just be "Cowsy&#39;s" as Rikk would have...

Ooh, this is the Big One, Elizabeth&#33;

Rat, you&#39;ve simply become emotionally blinded. Bush is not my favorite guy, but these comparisons to Nazi Germany are specious at best.

And Rat, if Bin Laden could have launched nuclear weapons at the US, do you think he would have hesitated. You should think a bit more before chosing with whom you dine, although the Bush family does have a history of puking. I think even Bush&#39;s grandfather did it.


edit- Ethel was "Aunt Ethel" and about 15 other mistakes.

[BigBank_Hank]

Hobbes you need to get your facts straight. Fred Sanford’s wife was not named Ethel it was Elizabeth