O'reilly Vs. Moore

[vidcc]

Originally posted by hobbes@30 July 2004 - 06:30

Your attempt to equate collections in local bars for the IRA as equivalent to government sanctioned military bases is the lie you are telling to yourself.

Read the post for heavens sake

but what is support of terroism? the IRA had a lot of funding from the USA. Does that mean that we support terrorists?.

How is asking a question lieing?

The question was "what is support for terrorism?". I tried to clarify it for you asking if the same went on in a middle eastern country would we be able to seperate government from private activities in deciding if there was support. At no point did i state that the government financed the IRA.... However are you saying that our secret services have never covertly funded certain groups around the world ? which is why i said perhaps we should look at our foriegn policy.
If iran or north korea had an identical foriegn policy to ours would we accept it?



The collections in bars was just a small example, individuals donated to the cause to greater extent. You can tell yourself it never happened but at best that would be naive.

[Rat Faced]

SJ,

Im not painting him as a Terrorist fighting hero.

Al-Queda frequently bombed in Iraq, the members were executed when caught.. QED

You may remember that after the 1st Gulf War, Bin Laden (then an honoured Ally) wished to carry on to remove Hussian. His organisation has bombed that country more than any other. Hussin was worse than the USA for Bin Laden... Hussain was a traitor to his religion and people as far as Bin Laden was concerned.

Hobbes, the IRA raised over 80% of its funds in the USA, and this was known about by the US Government which did absolutely nothing about it. It wasnt all over the USA, there are certain parts that have high Irish American populations such as New York, and they made a packet.

The only time the Government got involved was when they broke a US Law, and often turned a blind eye then too... you mentioned Money Laundering as an example.

It may not have been sanctioned, however turning a blind eye like it did certainly encouraged it.


To my knowledge there were no Government Sanctioned training camps in Iraq either. There were training camps however, run by and large by the Kurds... The Iraqi government did not turn a blind eye to these, they destroyed at least 2 in the last 10 years... not out of any kind of "world solidarity" against terrorism, but because the people that came out of there were trying to kill him.

The US Government was well aware of this... it was on the Whitehouse website prior to the invasion, after all.

It could therefore be argued (although im not doing so) that Iraq was more active against known terror organisations in its country, than the USA was in their country.

Yes, he did support "Terrorist" organisations.... all of them in Palestine and against Israel.

He wasnt alone in this... most wealthy Arabs do, in one way or another. Most Arabian Countries also do, in one way or another.

I dont think he actually gave a crap about the Palestine/Israeli conflict either.

It was politics to play one faction of his people against others...the way he stayed in power.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by vidcc@30 July 2004 - 14:28

but what is support of terroism? the IRA had a lot of funding from the USA. Does that mean that we support terrorists?.

How is asking a question lieing?- The question is obviously flawed and should never be put forth. The distinction between the actions of private individuals and government aide is clear cut.

However are you saying that our secret services have never covertly funded certain groups around the world ?- Secret service is a governmental agency, not a private one. You getting me confused.



The collections in bars was just a small example, individuals donated to the cause to greater extent. You can tell yourself it never happened but at best that would be naive. I know it happened, but again those are individuals

but what is support of terroism? the IRA had a lot of funding from the USA. Does that mean that we support terrorists?.

My question is how can a person who is trying to be honest make such an apples and oranges statement. If you really think that the United States Government supports the IRA based on the contributions of individual citizen in local taverns, then you are lying to yourself.

Saying that local citizens acting to support a personal cause is in anyway comparable to providing military bases, money and protection is self-deceit.

I mean the Taliban went to war for Al-Queda. The US would certainly not do so for the IRA.

They launder the money, to hide the origin and the destination. If the government were in cahoots, why bother.

So much money is laundered, for so many reasons, I imagine the IRA cut is rather peanuts and does not draw top priority.

Rat, stating that the IRA gets 80% of it's funding from the US makes it seem like we are supporting them, but it appears that the presense of sympathetic Irish Americans makes the US a convenient way to get money home. In America, probably as much money is filtered back to fight the IRA. We have people on both sides of this issue living here.

BTW, 80% is how much money, 8 dollars? And I was not aware that the IRA published a list on contributors. How do we get these percentages?

It reminds of me of how strange it is the Government can tell me that the #1 cash crop in Missouri is marijuana, earning "x" million this year, when marijuana is grown and sold in secret as it is illegal.

[vidcc]

again hobbes i state that i didn't say or imply that the USA government supports terrorism. it was a question. the question was not flawed but you chose to interpret it that way
let me simplify it

At what point do we, the usa, imply that a country (government) supports terrorism and do we apply the same levels to ourselves.

You have gone to great lengths to draw lines between American citizens supporting terrorists and governments and yet i have not seen anyone being able to do the same with middle eastern countries.

the secret service point was raised because you suggested that our government is pure and any mischief is solely down to individuals in not so many words. I seperated private and government sentences with a period and the word "However".

BTW, 80% is how much money, 8 dollars? And I was not aware that the IRA published a list on contributors. How do we get these percentages?

Are we going to have to wait for publication from terrorists about their supporters before we can take action then?


All this aside my original point was that we need to address the reasons we are a target and not just punish. Prevention is better than cure.
What do you feel the reason that we are a target could be?
It could be argued that all this military action is trying to kill the desease. personally i think it is possible that we are agrevating it.

[DanB]

To go slightly off topic here, what about the CIA selling heroin in years not to far gone by?

tut tut

[Rat Faced]

The British also sold that crap, its why we originally leased Hong Kong from the chinese...

The CIA didnt do it "officially" like the British did, however neither case is a source of pride DanB


Hobbes,

If it was just a quick whip around in the local pub, then I dont think anyone would give a monkeys... in certain Pubs of certain cities of England and Scotland, the same thing happens, im sure

However, as an example of how open it was, and indeed still is:

Shortly after 9/11, that November in fact... Gerry Adams was the guest of honour at a $500 a ticket fundraiser at the Sheraton Hotel in Manhatton.

Ironic.. 2 months after 9/11 and a Terrorist organisation is holding high profile Fundraiser just along the road.


My Apologies btw in giving incorrect data before:

Noraid (The organisation in the USA that quite freely raises funds for a terrorist organisation, even today) contributes an average of $1,000,000 per annum. This is the declared amount they give to the IRA, they also give approx $4,000,000 per annum for the "Families of Prisoners" (some sympathisers wont donate to the IRA, but will to help out these families apparently)... as most of these were released quite a while ago, then you can guess where this money actually ends up.

Thats a total annual estimate of $5,000,000 per annum from the USA.

This total estimated figure is approx 10-12% of the annual income of the IRA.

A further 8% is raised in other overseas countries such as Australia, Canada and New Zealand (Libya once paid them a lot of money too, but this stopped about 10 years ago...)

The remaining 80% is through "donations" from the UK and Ireland, although most is through Organised Crime; such as protection rackets, Drug Dealing in the UK (But not in Northern Ireland im informed..they Knee Cap Dealers there instead) and Eire, Armed Robbery throughout Northern Ireland and Eire, etc etc


In 1998, it was estimated that they spent in total $1,500,000 on demolition equipment and weapons (the rest being in the form of "Non Cash Donations").... the rest of it goes into their pockets.


So Hobbes, not quite the $8 per annum organisation you appear to believe they are... more a $50,000,000 per annum Corporation with Tax Free Status


Maybe I should start having whip rounds and fundraisers for the Mafia

[j2k4]

Originally posted by danb@30 July 2004 - 13:40
To go slightly off topic here, what about the CIA selling heroin in years not to far gone by?

tut tut

True enough, but today, nine out of ten CIA agents don't even know what heroin is.

[Rat Faced]

Originally posted by j2k4+30 July 2004 - 20:15--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (j2k4 &#064; 30 July 2004 - 20:15)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-danb@30 July 2004 - 13:40
To go slightly off topic here, what about the CIA selling heroin in years not to far gone by?

tut tut

True enough, but today, nine out of ten CIA agents don&#39;t even know what heroin is. [/b][/quote]
Really?

Ever wondered why so much money goes to Colombia?

Seems the only people being killed off by the Government sponsored Death Squads are Human Rights activists and Trade Union leaders.... not a lot of Drug Dealers in the Death List


Oops, wrong Drug... thats Cocaine, my Bad...

Maybe we should ask the Afgan WarLords how they manage to get it all out then.. I mean, the US is in control there, isnt it?

[Biggles]

Originally posted by hobbes@30 July 2004 - 17:50


I mean the Taliban went to war for Al-Queda. The US would certainly not do so for the IRA.

Again though, this is a touch apples and a fruit of your choice.

AQ were fighting the Northern Alliance along with the Taliban. Indeed, the bulk of their recruits were either fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan or in Chechyna against the Russians and were not involved in overseas terrorism at all (although I appreciate the Russians may see this differently).

Osama fought the Russians alongside the Afghans in the 80s - it is not surprising that Omar and others held him in affection. Whilst Saddam was unpopular in much of Iraq, Omar and Osama were heros of the war against Russia and this may be why they have been so hard to find - the bulk of Afghanistan being Pashtun and sympathetic to Omar and his friends.

If the US had such a close ally I think it might not be unreasonable to assume they would offer support even if there were a few skeletons in the wardrobe (Israel springs to mind). Clearly the IRA did not fall into this camp and consequently one would have been surprised to see US troops in West Belfast.

[j2k4]

Originally posted by Rat Faced+30 July 2004 - 15:23--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Rat Faced @ 30 July 2004 - 15:23)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by j2k4@30 July 2004 - 20:15
<!--QuoteBegin-danb

@30 July 2004 - 13:40
To go slightly off topic here, what about the CIA selling heroin in years not to far gone by?

tut tut

True enough, but today, nine out of ten CIA agents don&#39;t even know what heroin is.

Really?

Ever wondered why so much money goes to Colombia?

Seems the only people being killed off by the Government sponsored Death Squads are Human Rights activists and Trade Union leaders.... not a lot of Drug Dealers in the Death List


Oops, wrong Drug... thats Cocaine, my Bad...

Maybe we should ask the Afgan WarLords how they manage to get it all out then.. I mean, the US is in control there, isnt it? [/b][/quote]
You&#39;re just trying to make me toe your line, you foolish moderator.

Indeed, rhetoric and hyperbole do not suit me, do they?