O'reilly Vs. Moore

[SuperJude™]

Just to add a little more "cultural perspective" here: It is wholly terrible and disrespectful to those who lived through the holocaust to compare a man of evil who wanted to commit genocide to a barely popular war time president.

One thing I have learned from these discussions is that people will say anything to prove a point, since there are no boundries anymore. We are now in a world where it is okay to call the president of the US a nazi, which saddens me. I asked a man who came into my job today about the comparisons, this man wearing a yarmulka indicating he was Jewish, and he said he cannot stand Bush but to compare him to the nazi's is ludicrous.

It is. It makes me sad to read intelligent people lowering themselves because they are blinded by their dislike for another human.

What also saddens me is there are people from my own country who let this shit go down without the simplest of protests, which is why people like myself speak up more loudly and post in the same manner. Somebody must draw the line and say "No". Bush may be a goddamn shitbird conservative and all that but seriously, comparing him to a man who tried to exterminate the Jews is sad.

It also reminds me that a lot of the world is Anti-Semetic.

I will say I posted in anger before when I replied to clocker. He seems intelligent, but I feel that goading me into explaining fully who I am is lame. I do not use my experiences at the Trade Center as some center of discussion or strategy to win arguements. I did what I did I saw what I saw I learned what I learned. However the flippant manner in which 9-11 is invoked really does piss me off in real life. I saw it, handled it, smelt it and have dealt with the after effects both mental and physical, all of my choosing. But I do think obviously that 9-11 deserves historic event status. I cannot even begin to explain it all, maybe one day I'll make a thread about it, who knows, but I wish people would not belittle my country because of 9-11, cause you don't know what you are talking about.

That to me is cultural perspective. I am as Yankee as they get, proud of it even. I show pride in my country, I wish others who may have qualms with the current administration would open their eyes and stop letting everybody else who speaks only from conjecture stop bashing us. And like it or not, Bush represents us, he is one of us.

-SJ™

[Biggles]

SJ

Part of the problem is the distinction between man and post. As far as I can tell the post of Mr. President is held in some esteem in the US regardless of occupant. This is much less common in Europe. We have politicians period. The French do have a Presidential system but it is not as clear cut as the US one as they do also have a Prime Minister. Otherwise Heads of State (like Queenie) are purely figure heads with no particular partisan leaning.

Consequently as purely political figures they are all fair game. If someone criticises Blair I do not consider that an attack on the post of Prime Minister as the role is one given out amongst themselves (first amongst equals etc.,) rather than elected for by the populace.

Of course the other problem (and one which won't go away) is Rat Face really doesn't trust the neo-conservatives. The question is do the American people? Perhaps not.

[SuperJude™]

Hard call actually. I will say though that fellow Americans have said some pretty harsh things as well, but being as how I live in Ultra Liberal country (Woodstock NY) I discount a lot of the innanities.

-SJ™

[hobbes]

Rat,

I've read your post and I visited the web site you linked. I do understand why you are scared, but I don't think that GW is in the same league as Hitler. He would not starve, torture and dissect 6 million people.

Remember, Hitler did not just kill all those people, but he tortured primarily and killed them secondarily. That is not scapegoating that is hatred and loathing.


From PNAC

• we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global
responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;


• we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;


• we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad;


• we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles

As for the PNAC, is this philosophy unique to them or to the Nazi's. No, not even close. All countries would love to be in a position to exert this type of control over the planet. All governments desire to secure the future of their countries. We are just the only ones strong enough to even consider trying to carry out these objectives, at this time. That is where the fear comes from. George and his boys running loose with a hammer and you are helpless to do anything.

I can appreciate your impotent fear and anger, it is terrible. Most Americans felt this after 9/11 and were almost physically ill, like our sister was raped or something. It had nothing to do with the number of people killed, but a sense of violation, a violation that we could do nothing about. George responded in a measured way that Hitler would never have considered. Hitler would have launched the nukes and thought about the consequences later.

As for eating with Bin Laden, he'd just as soon cut your infidel head off, as pass the bread.

[Biggles]

Hobbes

Whilst I agree with much of what you say, I think you overstate the case by saying All countries would like to project their agenda abroad. Some countries, like Switzerland, are obsessively inward looking and most definitely do not want to project anything. Perhaps All superpowers (past, present and future) would like to be able to be in this position states things more accurately.

[vidcc]

Has anyone ever wondered why nobody attacks switzerland?.... could it be that they tend to keep their noses out of everyone elses affairs?


I am of course here omitting the times it was bombed in WW2.... by both sides

[spinningfreemanny]

Honestly, America is not as huge of a guy swinging a hammer as feared: if it was; I have little doubt that we would be in Iran & Syria right now as well. We are significantly hampered by allies opinion. It took a year to get into Iraq and overthrow saddam hussein...Hussein of all people! with a public trac record of genocide and 10 failed resolutions; each specifying threat of war if failure was the outcome. I think that others got freaked out when it came out that the UN could not control the US from action (no matter what the plot was) but I honestly doubt that we could pull anything stronger then Iraq without global support.

example: The US wants to overthrow a dictator accused of genocid and 8 failed resolutions... it will not happen.

[spinningfreemanny]

Originally posted by vidcc@1 August 2004 - 21:33
Has anyone ever wondered why nobody attacks switzerland?.... could it be that they tend to keep their noses out of everyone elses affairs?


I am of course here omitting the times it was bombed in WW2.... by both sides

Maybe of they were in the way of Germany's blitzkrieg it would be different...

[Biggles]

Originally posted by spinningfreemanny+1 August 2004 - 21:43--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (spinningfreemanny @ 1 August 2004 - 21:43)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-vidcc@1 August 2004 - 21:33
Has anyone ever wondered why nobody attacks switzerland?.... could it be that they tend to keep their noses out of everyone elses affairs?


I am of course here omitting the times it was bombed in WW2.... by both sides

Maybe of they were in the way of Germany&#39;s blitzkrieg it would be different... [/b][/quote]
The Swiss ran things like clockwork (I&#39;ll get me coat), every able bodied man was a member of the National Guard and the country is a nightmare to move around in. It would have taken half the Wermacht to secure it for no strategic gain whatsoever.

Strangely the Nazis observed Sweden&#39;s neutrality and that of the Iberian Peninsula. They had a specific game plan and it mostly involved taking Poland, Ukraine and the Russian oil fields.

[vidcc]

Originally posted by spinningfreemanny@1 August 2004 - 15:43
Maybe of they were in the way of Germany&#39;s blitzkrieg it would be different...

I would like to point out that the germans did very little bombing of switzerland although not an insignificant amount and the USA and her allies did the vast majority.

However i am not really making a point of the world war rather modern day events.